A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Summary of Posts 151-200 in this thread:

Beers from Pilseners through Schwartzbiers are being brewed and enjoyed by BIABers.

PistolPatch discussed reasoning behind BIAB's efficiency, comparing full-volume brewing to batch sparging and considering that the greater fluid volume results in less sugars retained by the grains upon draining. (151, 154, 156)

Whether to raise the temperature of the mash prior to removing the bag is debated. PistolPatch vassilates in a discussion with JimmySuperlative . (156)

Morrie666 continued small-volume boils on the stove - to his wife's apparent disdain. (162)

Linz makes a BIAB-style liner for his HERMS mash tun. (165, 171)

PistolPatch and Brad_G brew side by side in a BIAB v Batch Sparge brew-off to compare results. Samples are sent to the Queensland Case Swap group. (166, 172)

Matti raises concerns about dough-balls and grain saturation with BIAB (169), which PistolPatch seems to think are not a problem. (170)

Morrie666 suggests using two bags in a double-sized batch rather than using a single, larger bag, to avoid the bag breaking from too much weight. (173)

Maxt achieves 80% efficiency into boiler on his third BIAB brew. (182)

 

[PistolPatch]

And how good are those summaries?

I hope someone apart from me has thanked you guys for the above.

Will consolidate the above and give you guys the huge credit you deserve in the next few days.

ATM though, I've started a new thread asking for both constructive and informed criticism (both positive and negative) of BIAB. If anyone has anything to say, post here

Please just post there and say how you have found BIAB - good or bad. Personally, I think it's time we started to tech BIAB up rather than question it.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Will someone please take the time to thank the above people for their summaries? I know FNQBunyip is in the process of writing a thank you but these guys deserve a lot more. Then again, maybe no one is reading this thread! LOL!

 

[capretta]

Ive just had my first AG birthday (oh how time does fly!! rolleyes.gif ) and i have never BIAB so i cant speak with experience of your method, so let me ask a few questions.. can you get/what do you do with a stuck mash? or does the bag sparge effectively enough? Have you had success with wheat beers?
I was under the impression that forming a good grain bed for sparging was important to remove not only grain debris, but also long chain proteins to a certain extent. i have spent an hour reading the various posts on the topic, and i know you have mentioned you have good clarity, but cant proteins also encourage bacterial growth after longish period of storage? Is it possible to easily measure protiens in beer?

 

[capretta]

back from work after spending the day with greg noonan, new brewing lager beer, and he writes " ..sparging/filtering is to rinse the soluble extract free from the malt husks and to trap insoluble, poorly modified starch, protein, lipids and silicates within the husks p146" the proteins in the husk grab the gunk on the way through . those unmodified starches are incredibly attractive to nasty bacteria etc. Not sparging would seem to me to risk astringency and unstability, and that would be my fear on moving onto biab.
My beer needs all the help it can get!!
but i dont know guys, the book written in 86, was revised in 96. was i even born then? it is so far back in the mists of time.. maybe i need to bite the bullet and get a set of womens stockings. for biab of course!

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I haven't been making beer long enough to be authoritative about anything and the only thing I am really expert in is asserting that I am *not* an expert, but...

There are a number of people experimenting with and developing new techniques in this place. Some of these techniques are challenging accepted wisdom. Some of them are so new that it is yet to be seen if they will in turn become accepted.

What I can tell you is that brewing in a bag and using no-chill cubes gives *me* better beer than I have ever made before and I am having so much fun that my friends are wondering why I have this perpetual smile on my face.

I reckon the best way to decide is to give it a go.

 

[poppa joe]

YES PP>>>
You burnt your bag...told you to use a CAKE STAND>>>>>>
Possibly we could take the "I" out of BIAB??..Replace it with an 'O'....(BOAB brewing)
'BREWING ON A BUDGET' ....I feel another thread coming along....
MY ONLY CLAIM TO FAME>>The CAKE STAND.... :beerbang:
Cheers
PJ

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

capretta,

There is also discussion which very nearly addresses your queries in the 'All in One Brewery Thread', here -> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11074 , which I must confess I haven't read recently and cannot now due to time constraints. In a surprisingly brief conversation, Mr Patch suggested it would answer your question more specifically than my own generalist answer and also confirmed that he prefers his coffee with just one sugar...

 

[PistolPatch]

EDIT: Now that I am banned, this really was going to be a short post but obviously I have some 'issues,' that I will discuss with my AHB Personal Restrainer on Monday.

What a crack up PJ and Spills (more below for you two and Capretta!)

Looks like I didn't mention it in this thread but I've banned myself from answering questions on AHB. It was going to be for five days(?) but I'm extending it until the BIAB Guide is totally re-written including the first four posts of this thread.

About twice a year, I get a bit worn out. If you've seen some of my recent posts on AHB (I'm too scared to even look) they are probably 50 pages long and could possibly have no point. If there was a point, it's probably miniscule :blink:

The last time I was in this frame of mind I actually wrote the BIAB guide. So I might as well channel my current compulsive writing need into something constructive - getting the second (and hopefully last) re-write done. Hopefully this time, with the help or actual writing you have given or offered, it will be a lot better.

So, if anyone asks questions here, please answer them asap. I get the topic reply notification thingo and so when I see a question asked I get restless until I see it answered...

Just looking at Capretta's post and there hasn't been an answer yet besides Spills. In fact, I don't think I even wished Capretta a happy first AG birthday. Here it is now Capretta!

Capretta's questions are very good. Unfortunately, I think they were answered in the 'All In One Brewery' thread so to us 'old time' BIABers we may think the answer is obvious whereas it is not.

OMG! Have just re-read Capretta's post and I didn't realise his questions were THAT good! There's questions there that I think only ThirstyBoy could answer!!! I have no idea of some answers! The only bit I saw was, 'Not sparging would seem to me to risk astringency and unstability...' and I was going to explain that BIAB mashes and sparges at the same time and that in the side by side test, BIAB came out as slightly less astringent but with slightly less body to the one person who could pick the difference!

AND, Capretta has read the topic!!!! Well done - no way I would have!

Agh!

You see? This is why I have to ban myself from AHB until the guide is written. There is too much stuff here that fascinates me and I write while I think with the total unawareness that this is a forum not a book writing club - lol!

I actually can't believe the tolerance you guys and the general forum have had for me as I think that I would actually often find me very annoying :blink: It's a great reflection on AHB that guys like me are so well tolerated and helped. Poor old PintofLager dealt with a billion of my lunatic questions in the early days. Poor old PostModern had to deal with the complaints! PostModern just laughs now when I do stupid stuff and we are looking forward to a beer when I'm in Sydney basically so we can laugh at me.... Remember the 2 page answer I wrote on.....' and that guy replied....' and then you had to..... - too many lol!

Looks like everyone knows now that I'm a bit of a loony who might occassionally be worth tolerating. (Don't forget though that it was POL and PoMO who knew first :beer

So, I'm answering no more questions until the guide is done. I'll probably do some frivolous posts though. I mean Poppa Joe...

PJ: I have never burnt my bag - that was Bunyip with his friggin' NASA burner! I actually don't and have never used a cake stand though I keep meaning to. A three ring burner is quite gentle if you keep stirring. I keep looking though for the right cake stand. PJ, can you do me a favour and find where you first suggestd this? It was probably in the All In One Brewery thread. With this re-write though, I'm thinking of listing all the credits in date order. You looking that up and maybe summarising a hundred posts wither side of that thread would be great! Oh and I seriously nearly wet myself when I saw your BIAB equipment and how much it had cost you in that other thread. In fact, to be honest, the only reason why I'm even writing a post here tonight is because I thought your post was so funny!

I think that's all I had to say
Pat

P.S. Oh yeah. Can you guys post your summaries? That way I can whack them in the fourth post - a total re-write is going to happen and it is looking good already!!!!

 

[mimerbryg]

I keep looking though for the right cake stand. PJ, can you do me a favour and find where you first suggestd this? It was probably in the All In One Brewery thread

It is here mate
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=145147

Just where you thougt it might be

Kind regards
Flemming

 

[capretta]

capretta,
There is also discussion which very nearly addresses your queries in the 'All in One Brewery Thread', here -> http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11074 , which I must confess I haven't read recently and cannot now due to time constraints.

Oh smoi! of course with you biab'ers, its not enough i trawl my way through a 300+ thread but you have many others too!! curse your prolificness ( my what an ugly word )

i had previously lightly dipped into that BIAB thread but it seemed to be so full of "arcane rituals and secret handshakes" due to the long term nature of it i would have to be fully versed in its lore before i felt comfortable posting. when the new thread (good advice for beginners) appeared it seemed as if PP was trying to encourage fresh input, otherwise why bother with a new thread? i only posted what my concerns would be with the method according to the dogma i have digested.

but in the end, we all make alcohol.. :lol:

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

i only posted what my concerns would be with the method according to the dogma i have digested.

That's okay, I brew according to catma, since my comprehensive kharma insurance ran out... :blink:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Pistol,

Dont answer me for gods sake, read if you must, but NO answering. Go to bed!!!

For your cake rack (if you decide you want ot use one) try an asian shop and the warming racks for a wok. Nice and solid.

Capretta -

I haven't read Noonan so I have to take what he writes in the contexts of your quote

" ..sparging/filtering is to rinse the soluble extract free from the malt husks and to trap insoluble, poorly modified starch, protein, lipids and silicates within the husks p146" the proteins in the husk grab the gunk on the way through

The words "on the way through" and the interchangability of his use of sparging/filtering suggest to me that he means continuous or fly sparging. I see what he's getting at, and its Noonan, so I assume he's right.

But.... that would mean, I think, that not only BIAB, but batch sparging and normal mash No-sparge brews would all miss out on the grabbing of the gunk. Wouldn't it? BIAB might in a lot of ways be new, but batch and no sparge brewing certainly aren't. Its my understanding that these types of wort seperation dont adversly effect the quality of the brew, so I suspeect that it wouldn't be a problem in BIAB either. I suppose its also possible that the bag could grab the stuff just as well as the husks would??

I'm not sure, I have no theory to back up the opinion (I just have PP fooled into thinking I know more than I really do), just a logical connection and a growing body of good BIAB brews. Empirically, astringency doesn't seem to be a problem for BIAB, or at least it doesn't seem to be being reported as a problem. Stability, I dunno, maybe it could be an issue, I haven't aged any of my BIABs for very long. Has anyone else??

Thirsty

 

[capretta]

hey thirsty B) , everything from noonan was in quotes, everything else was paraphrased in what i thought was context

his idea was to form a precise grain bed " in an ideal stirred-mash bed, the heavy hulls that settle onto the false bottom are covered by a deeper layer of lighter hull fragments and endosperm particles. until this porous filter mass has been formed, tiny gelatinized particles of starch and protein remain suspended in the liquid " .

i got the impression that the levels of grain had very specific functions in grabbing crap on the way through, especially getting the fluid mass through the "gelatinized particles" on the top.. i batch sparge and still get separate levels which the wort must pass through. it would seem the holes on the bag are too big and lack the enzymes and proteins which supposedly grab the starches, lipids etc. i have no knowledge of the "no sparge" system tho :takes on grizzled prospector voice: ... and i cans only quote me book learnins..

ps i wont tell PP about you, if you dont tell him about me!!

 

[PistolPatch]

First Four Posts Re-Written

Just quickly, instead of drinking 100 litres of beer I tried the same volume of coffee today and actually achieved something apart from a hangover and awakening in a panic - lol.

Those of you who have some time, please check out what I've done so far in the first four posts and let me know of any errors or if it seems logical.

Do not download the files as they are still the same. Nearly have those up to a postable form though.

Spills and others have mentioned the Wiki. Perhaps Post #2 would be a good thing to add there?

Also, please note that FNQBunyip has got the BIAB Brewer Register off the ground. Please post there. (This was formerly called 'BIAB Brewers Please Step Forward.' Donya Ned!

That's all I'm going to write here but thanks for all your help and tolerance over the last few weeks.

Spot ya,
Pat

P.S. Fleming, thanks for the link to PJ's cakes stand. Thanks Thirsty for the wok burner post. And PJ, I just love your BOAB thread! ROFL!

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

Well done Pat , thats come up prety good . You've done a lot of work there mate...

Thanks to the others that have put in the hours as well, this is a great resouce.. Its also a lot of fun..

:beer:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

hey thirsty B) , everything from noonan was in quotes, everything else was paraphrased in what i thought was context

his idea was to form a precise grain bed " in an ideal stirred-mash bed, the heavy hulls that settle onto the false bottom are covered by a deeper layer of lighter hull fragments and endosperm particles. until this porous filter mass has been formed, tiny gelatinized particles of starch and protein remain suspended in the liquid " .

i got the impression that the levels of grain had very specific functions in grabbing crap on the way through, especially getting the fluid mass through the "gelatinized particles" on the top.. i batch sparge and still get separate levels which the wort must pass through. it would seem the holes on the bag are too big and lack the enzymes and proteins which supposedly grab the starches, lipids etc. i have no knowledge of the "no sparge" system tho :takes on grizzled prospector voice: ... and i cans only quote me book learnins..

ps i wont tell PP about you, if you dont tell him about me!!

You've got me stumped mate - I cant think of an answer to that one. If someone else can come up with one I'd love to hear it.

The only thing so far is that there dont actually seem to be too many problems with the beers... so unless there turn out to be longer term issues with stability... somethings going on that neutralises the potential issue. Looks like we might have to wait and see on this one.

Thirsty

 

[The King of Spain]

Why do BIABers advocate heating the grain up with the water instead of dropping the grain in once you have your desired strike temp (as i used to do). Is it to avoid enzyme shock? Maybe thats why my efficiency with galaxy has been so poor??

Any comments?

 

[PistolPatch]

Uh oh Deaves!

Looks like you've been doing the 'escalator mash' which I thought was a good idea at the time of writing the original booklet, especially as it made it a lot easier to write. I then decided against it for practical reasons and added a note into one of the first four posts saying, 'Don't do this!'

You'll see it mentioned in one of the summaries above.

I won't finish the re-write of the first 4 posts and the BIAB Booklet until the weekend, mainly because I'm still working out the best way to explain this point.

What you need to do is as you suggest. In other words, heat all the water up to about 1.5 degrees above your desired strike temperature assuming your grain is at around a room temperature of 20 degrees, and then dump all your grain in.

Sorry about that mate! I know you hate reading a lot - sometimes it's worth it but! ( Thanks for taking that one fore the team as I actually was going to try the escalator mash as a matter of interest in the next few weeks.

It'll be interesting to see what the percentage difference is when you do your next brew.

Can you let us know how the actual beer tasted as a matter of interest?

I'll add a note now at the top of Post # 1 to prevent anyone else doing the old escalator mash!


Thanks mate,
Pat

(Got your PM too mate - lol - but I'm getting off here right now so I won't reply.)

 

[The King of Spain]

Sorry PP, was not real clear about that. I have always dropped my grain in about 2C higher than desired mash. Initial reaons (apart from having to be different) were practical in that I could get a very good uniform temp (no hot and colds) and then do my mash in. I've since read (Palmers view) that it is best to raise grain temp by increments to stop enzyme shock. He advocates adding strike water slowly. I don't know how this works but observe the same instructions with yeast and temperature shock so wondered what there was to it.

Thanks again for getting me going. I've now got an operational mash tun, HP burner, big kettles, fridges with temp reg. My wife would love to meet you so lets hope that never happens..ha ha.

Cheers mate.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

(Got your PM too mate - lol - but I'm getting off here right now so I won't reply.)

Too much information... :unsure: