A Couple Of Invert Sugar Questions

[cpsmusic]

Hi,

I'd like to try making and using invert sugar in a few upcoming batches I'm planning (an English Pale Ale and a Dubbel).

I've dug up plenty of info online however I'm unclear about a couple of things:

1. What state does it finish in? One lot of instructions says to pour the stuff onto greaseproof paper where it will harden (provided it's been taken to hard crack temp) while another implies that it will stay as a syrup and that if it hardens the invert process hasn't worked (or worked completely).

2. When using invert sugar, when does it get added - at the start of the boil, the end, or somewhere inbetween?

Cheers,

Chris

 

[Howlingdog]

This is one of the easieist to follow how to's I've seen for making candi sugar.

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopi...=30&t=16473

 

[sim]

Also here is good, near the bottom.

 

[Nick JD]

The way I see it is there's not much point inverting sugar unless you are changing its colour and flavour with a long boil.

Inverting it can be done by just chucking it in at the start of your boil. Or, just use dextrose which is what you are turning your sucrose into.

I think there's a bit of paranoia - OMG, I'm adding a bag of SUGAR to this ... like K&K!! - and if you invert it then you can keep your Brewer's Badge.

Burnish it till it's dark toffee and delicious, or Dextrose is $3 a kg at Big W. You are still a bona fide brewer if you use kgs and kgs of sucrose!

 

[QldKev]

Also here is good, near the bottom.

I've done it that way, worked a treat.

Here's the 1928 IPA from the same thread that uses the Inverted sugar (in my glass right now)



QldKev

 

[cpsmusic]

I'm just a beginner at this so maybe I'm wrong, but aren't the two processes going to produce slightly different results?

If you add sucrose to the boil how can you tell how much caramelization has occurred?

The way I see it is there's not much point inverting sugar unless you are changing its colour and flavour with a long boil.

Inverting it can be done by just chucking it in at the start of your boil. Or, just use dextrose which is what you are turning your sucrose into.

I think there's a bit of paranoia - OMG, I'm adding a bag of SUGAR to this ... like K&K!! - and if you invert it then you can keep your Brewer's Badge.

Burnish it till it's dark toffee and delicious, or Dextrose is $3 a kg at Big W. You are still a bona fide brewer if you use kgs and kgs of sucrose!

 

[QldKev]

I'm just a beginner at this so maybe I'm wrong, but aren't the two processes going to produce slightly different results?

If you add sucrose to the boil how can you tell how much caramelization has occurred?

The big difference is the temp, when you invert sugar in the pot you are pushing it to 115c, which is hotter than we boil our wort at.

QldKev

 

[QldKev]

Forgot to answer your original questions

1. What state does it finish in? One lot of instructions says to pour the stuff onto greaseproof paper where it will harden (provided it's been taken to hard crack temp) while another implies that it will stay as a syrup and that if it hardens the invert process hasn't worked (or worked completely).

2. When using invert sugar, when does it get added - at the start of the boil, the end, or somewhere inbetween?


1. It should remain a liquid, a very thick liquid at that, if it hardens or even has crystals once it cools the process has failed. You don't want it to get hot enough for the hard crack temp (about 150c)

2. Start of the boil


QldKev


ps. if you can;t be bothered inverting sugar, Golden Syrup is over 50% inverted sugars

 

[felten]

Also here is good, near the bottom.

This is also the method I've used, it comes out pretty good.

 

[Bribie G]

Kev's the man for this sort of info, as he's very much into recreating old UK brews amongst other things (for example recipes on the "Shut up about Barclay Perkins" blog)
UK breweries back in their golden days before EvilMegaSwillCorp I and II took them over used a lot of invert, in various grades such as Invert No. 1, Invert No. 3, whatever, and it was generally for colouring purposes as well as using it as an adjunct to produce alcohol.

I'm currently exploring the glorious keg beers of the 1960s and wouldn't mind having a crack at it myself. I can sense some badly burnt pans coming up

 

[Nick JD]

I'm just a beginner at this so maybe I'm wrong, but aren't the two processes going to produce slightly different results?

If you add sucrose to the boil how can you tell how much caramelization has occurred?

Inverting sucrose and carmelisation are two different things.

Inverting splits sucrose into glucose and fructose - both of which are eaten completely by the yeast and turned into alcohol.

Caramelisation is the decomposition of sugaz by heating - essentially controlled burning.

There's another process similar to caramelisation called the Maillard reaction but that requires proteins to create the yummy browned stuff. You won't get that with a pure mix of sugaz and water.

 

[cpsmusic]

So what's happening when the darker invert colours are produced?

Inverting sucrose and carmelisation are two different things.

Inverting splits sucrose into glucose and fructose - both of which are eaten completely by the yeast and turned into alcohol.

Caramelisation is the decomposition of sugaz by heating - essentially controlled burning.

There's another process similar to caramelisation called the Maillard reaction but that requires proteins to create the yummy browned stuff. You won't get that with a pure mix of sugaz and water.

 

[Nick JD]

So what's happening when the darker invert colours are produced?

There are teeny, tiny bits of charcoal in your sugar.

Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis

Have a look into the way they make caramel (E150), the stuff that makes Coca Cola and Vegemite black.

 

[Bribie G]

For colouring up a brew nowadays I use Maltoferm A-6001 Dry Black Malt Extract from Briess, available from Mark's Home Brew Shop in Newcastle in tubs at a very nice price.

It's the same consistency as powdered instant coffee and is basically flavourless but 100% natural product - does a similar job to Weyermann Sinamar. Great for turning a Helles into a Dunkel or colouring up a Yorkshire Gold into something that judges will accept as actually being an ESB :lol:

Full instructions on the tub (no affiliation)

 

[cpsmusic]

But if that's how caramel is made, isn't that caramelization?

Am I right in saying that making a darker invert is essentially a two-stage process in which the sucrose is first inverted and then caramelized?

There are teeny, tiny bits of charcoal in your sugar.

Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrolysis

Have a look into the way they make caramel (E150), the stuff that makes Coca Cola and Vegemite black.

 

[Bribie G]

Yes in a nutshell

Another way of making Invert sugar is the 19th century Tomson's Process where yeast was mixed with a sugar (sucrose) solution at 55. This hijacks the Yeast's Invertase enzyme to crack the sugar, and the resulting mixture was poured directly into the boil, furnishing some yeast nutrient from the slaughtered innocent yeast, no doubt.

Edit, I've never tried this myself - might try it with some saved yeast sometime