30% Plus Eis Beer Experiments

[Jye]

So after Brew Dogs efforts with Tactical Nuclear Penguin and Sink The Bismarck I really want to give this a go. To date I have done a Weizen-Eisbock and that was slowly frozen down to -6C in a fridge. The result was about 11% and I think it was a successful beer. However yesterday I attempted an epic eis beer along the lines of Brew Dog which completely failed by only getting to 8%... even though it was in a -27C freezer!

From this I have a feeling rapid freezing will not concentrate the alc and a slower controlled drop in temp is required. My attempt used an american brown (about 5.5%) in a 3L plastic container and I shook it every hr to create a slurry. The remaining 500ml at the end of freezing was then poured off.

Unanswered questions;
Does shaking the freezing contain to create a slurry help or should it be left to freeze as a block?
High or low alc starting beer. Which one tastes better? Lower alc because it has a more controlled fermentation and possible less higher alcohols?

So lets get a discussion going for these very high alcohol eis-beers and maybe everyone can give it ago in their freezer to contribute some results. You will need a hydrometer and refractometer to measure the resulting alc%, Beersmith has a function to calculate this.

Cheers
Jye

Wiki

• Freezing in this scenario begins at a temperature significantly below 0 C.
• The first material to freeze is not the water, but a dilute solution of alcohol in water.
• The liquid left behind is richer in alcohol, and as a consequence, further freezing would take place at progressively lower temperatures. The frozen material, while always poorer in alcohol than the (increasingly rich) liquid, becomes progressively richer in alcohol.
• Further stages of removing frozen material and waiting for more freezing will come to nought once the liquid uniformly cools to the temperature of whatever is cooling it.
• If progressively colder temperatures are available,
  • the frozen material will contain progressively larger concentrations of alcohol, and
  • the fraction of the original alcohol removed with the solid material will increase.
• In practice, unless the removal of solid material carries away liquid, the degree of concentration will depend on the final temperature rather than on the number of cycles of removing solid material and chilling.
• Thermodynamics gives fair assurance, even without more information about alcohol and water than that they freely dissolve in each other, that
  • even if temperatures somewhat below the freezing point of ethyl alcohol are achieved, there will still be alcohol and water mixed as a liquid, and
  • at some still lower temperature, the remaining alcohol-and-water solution will freeze without an alcohol-poor solid being separable.

Data taken from.


edit - wiki data source

 

[Adamt]

Can't comment much on the taste as I've never done it... but having larger chunks of frozen material, "snap frozen" will coincide with more alcohol being frozen due to trapped liquid. As mentioned in the link above... pure water in an ethanol-water mixture won't freeze, but a dilute solution will. By slowly lowering the temperature and removing the ice often, you could expect more alcohol to be saved. Conceptually, I would think smaller crystals would result in lower-alcohol solids, but I doubt that would take much effect until the crystal size is reaaaaaaaallly small. It could be interesting testing (maybe side-by-side?) a stirred container (visualise frozen coke) versus a non-stirred container?

 

[beersom]

Have been toying with the idea of doing this at work with St Bridget (7.2%) or even our 6.5% IPA and seeing if I could take it to the 10-15% mark. We have a -18c freezer.....
have accidently done it in a fridge with a couple of brews, but never tried to do it on purpose before. Was thinking of doing it in a corny kegs and flushing the dip tube with co2 before hand to limit freezing in the tube... thoughts

 

[Howlingdog]

I did it with the Eagle Heights Munich. Got it down to -30deg.C for two weeks. will bring a bottle along to BABBs on Thursday. Its more like a whiskey than a beer.

 

[Jye]

beersom, that is pretty what Im going to do next time and give a shake every now and the to make a slurry. Dont really want to ice to freeze as a block and destroy the corny.

HD, I look forward to that

 

[beersom]

I did it with the Eagle Heights Munich. Got it down to -30deg.C for two weeks. will bring a bottle along to BABBs on Thursday. Its more like a whiskey than a beer.

what was your original abv, approx final abv and what sort of vessel did you do it in ? ...? ...?
... and please do bring it to babbs, I would love to try it.

 

[Howlingdog]

what was your original abv, approx final abv and what sort of vessel did you do it in ? ...? ...?
... and please do bring it to babbs, I would love to try it.

Original OG of EH Munich wort 1.050 boiled down to 1.087 fermented with 2308 Munich Lager @ 9 deg.C to SG 1.022 ABv 10.05% then lagered for three weeks @ 0.0deg.C then put in freezer for just over three weeks. The first week was lowering the temp form zero at 3 Deg.C per day then 2 weeks @-26-30 deg.C.

FG is now 1.046

I'll bring a still bottle which has the consistency of golden syrup and also a bottle forced-carbonated.

 

[alowen474]

You could ferment it out, then freeze it in the fermenter. Get it to the strength you want, then keg, carbonate and bottle.
If you want to bottle condition you may need to add yeast though.

 

[Ross]

Original OG of EH Munich wort 1.050 boiled down to 1.087 fermented with 2308 Munich Lager @ 9 deg.C to SG 1.022 ABv 10.05% then lagered for three weeks @ 0.0deg.C then put in freezer for just over three weeks. The first week was lowering the temp form zero at 3 Deg.C per day then 2 weeks @-26-30 deg.C.

FG is now 1.046

I'll bring a still bottle which has the consistency of golden syrup and also a bottle forced-carbonated.

Awesome - Have been discussing doing this with Jye & others (hence the thread), so really looking forward to trying it. I'm planning on doing 45L of heavily hopped Imperial IPA as the starting base.

Cheers Ross

 

[RetsamHsam]

Awesome - Have been discussing doing this with Jye & others (hence the thread), so really looking forward to trying it. I'm planning on doing 45L of heavily hopped Imperial IPA as the starting base.

Cheers Ross

I also have 3 cubes (45L) of heavily hopped IIPA, I might have to sacrifice a cube for expermintation... I read that Brew Dog freeze 4 times to get their 42% 4IPA, what volume would I end up with if I was to do this starting with 15L?

 

[beersom]

You could ferment it out, then freeze it in the fermenter.

a bit hard in a 6000 Litre fermenter.... I only want to do a little bit to check the results then maybe try with a bit more.

Do you think a corny keg will be up to it, or will maddening damage ensue ?

 

[newguy]

Did two now, an eisbock and an eis wee heavy (don't ask). The eisbock finished at around 16% and the eis wee heavy at 24%. Never gave a thought to freezing rate - just chucked a keg into a -20C (ish) freezer for 24 hours and racked whatever I could from the frozen keg to a different one. Both lost about 30-40% to ice.

Results? Eisbock (original beer was a doppelbock at about 1.080ish from memory) was superb. Aging benefited this beer. The Eis wee heavy was initially too strong and bitter but age is mellowing this character tremendously (OG over 1.100). Only thing to watch out for is the initial IBU level of the starting beer. More than ~20-25 should be avoided. The eisbock was about this level and was okay. The wee heavy had ~30 IBU and it's too much (and I had a feeling 30 was too high when I brewed it too). Just remember that the freezing concentrates bitterness and roasted notes so go easy on both in the original beer.

 

[MHB]

Freezing slowly is the answer, it gives the ice crystals (pure water) time to grow, Ive had the best results by putting the beer (or in the case Im referring to the Cider) into a plastic bag, putting the bag into an esky and putting the esky into the freezer.
After giving it a week or so in the freezer the bag was hung up in a fridge (set to coldest ~-3oC) then a corner was cut off the bag and the liquid allowed to drain, while the ice was kept solid, the result was 35% ABV apple well it got renamed Apple Schlaps. Have to say it was a bit rough for the first couple of months but it moderated well over about 6 months.

A few trials with beer were disappointing; the lesson learned was that everything except the bitterness concentrates, not just the alcohol. Over about 20-25% ABV the result was more like soya sauce than beer, salty, thick, oily and extremely alcoholic.
Bear in mind that there is a solubility limit on alpha acid (about 90 IBUs) above this the alpha acid will drop out, AA is also extremely sticky (bad terminology) but it adheres to everything, including the ice crystals (melt some of the ice and taste it) and whatever container you have frozen the beer in.

I think if you wanted to experiment starting with a very pale Pilsner, that has had the alcohol ramped up to 8-9% with dextrose and maybe around 35 IBUs would be a good place to begin, think about doubling the alcohol content but expect it to take a long time to mature to drinkability. Hum getting a mental image of the Rogue Imperial Pilsner, thats one wicked beer!

MHB

PS
I have a box of 20 Litre bladders (like big wine cask bags) with plugs here, Sterile, re-closable food grade barrier bags, so no oxidisation issues, the cost me about $2 each if anyone wants some, happy to pass them on at cost + postage.
M

 

[hefevice]

a bit hard in a 6000 Litre fermenter.... I only want to do a little bit to check the results then maybe try with a bit more.

Do you think a corny keg will be up to it, or will maddening damage ensue ?

Corny keg should be fine. I accidentally did this to a Hefeweizen :-(. Only found out when I thought I had emptied the keg. I didn't notice the difference, but you managed to pick it up blind at a BABBs meeting (comment was more alcoholic than usual). As indicated in other posts, I think the trick is slow and steady; give it time at just below freezing. Decant and repeat. Corny keg perfect for this as you can do closed transfers.

No damage was done to the keg, but I would suggest not completely filling it to allow for expansion when the water freezes.

 

[Jye]

Freezing slowly is the answer, it gives the ice crystals (pure water) time to grow, Ive had the best results by putting the beer (or in the case Im referring to the Cider) into a plastic bag, putting the bag into an esky and putting the esky into the freezer.

Nice tip about using an esky. Ill give it another go with my 3l bottle stuffed inside a couple of cooler bags.