Yeast Starter Methods

[Dazza_devil]

G'day Brewers.
I know there are threads on making starters from wyeast and saving slurry for future brews but there seems to be a few cloudy areas, for me anyway.

When I step up from 1 litre to 3 litre what's the best method? I've read some chill and decant off the starter beer between steps and feed again. Won't this method make a second generation of yeast? Do you add 2 or 3 litres of wort onto the slurry, the yeast has already had a 1 litre feed.
Cilling-Ambient-chilling -ambient, won't this harm the yeast?
If stepping up without chilling and decanting beer off the top do you add another 2 litres of wort or another 3 litres? If it's only two then the prior method gets more of a feed.
What is the best way I can save some yeast in stubbies and pitch enough into my wort without having to make another starter from my starter, hence more time lag between brews.
Is it OK to have a just bit of slurry in the bottom of a stubby for future brews or is it best to have some beer on top of it, less headspace and protection of the yeast.
Should you carbonate your 1st generation yeast samples? Will doing it with carbonation drops affect the quality of the yeast?


As you can see I'm confused on the issue and I'm sure there are more questions but they may confuse the matter even more at this stage.

Cheers

 

[Nick JD]

I make 5L "brews" (LDME @1.030) with a pack, let it ferment out and then shake the container up so it's a big creamy foam mess - then bottle into 10 super-sanitized, 600ml coke PET bottles.

$1.20 a brew. Just have to take the bottle out of the fridge and let it come up to the temperature of the brew before you shake it up and chuck it in.

Am I under or overpitching using this method? Meh - it works a treat. Screw paying $10 for yeast for one brew.

 

[Phoney]

I do what Nick JD does, but on a smaller scale.

Make a 2L starter (with 200g of LDME), add yeast, ferment it out, shake, then pour off into 5 - 10* santitized urine sample jars# label and stick it in the fridge. The 1L or so left behind I pitch into my fresh wort.

You can stack them up so this only takes up half a shelf of our kitchen fridge with at about 10 different strains of yeast... Then when I need one, I pull it out, add it to a 500mL or 1L starter, give it 3 - 4 days to build up and then pitch! I dont know if this is a flawed method or not, but it works for me

My oldest yeast in there is about 9 months old, but ive heard they can be stored for up to a couple of years like this...

* Depending on how often I reckon im gonna be using that yeast
# I buy em from the chemist for .90c ea

 

[manticle]

G'day Brewers.
I know there are threads on making starters from wyeast and saving slurry for future brews but there seems to be a few cloudy areas, for me anyway.

When I step up from 1 litre to 3 litre what's the best method? I've read some chill and decant off the starter beer between steps and feed again. Won't this method make a second generation of yeast? Do you add 2 or 3 litres of wort onto the slurry, the yeast has already had a 1 litre feed.
Cilling-Ambient-chilling -ambient, won't this harm the yeast?
If stepping up without chilling and decanting beer off the top do you add another 2 litres of wort or another 3 litres? If it's only two then the prior method gets more of a feed.
What is the best way I can save some yeast in stubbies and pitch enough into my wort without having to make another starter from my starter, hence more time lag between brews.
Is it OK to have a just bit of slurry in the bottom of a stubby for future brews or is it best to have some beer on top of it, less headspace and protection of the yeast.
Should you carbonate your 1st generation yeast samples? Will doing it with carbonation drops affect the quality of the yeast?


As you can see I'm confused on the issue and I'm sure there are more questions but they may confuse the matter even more at this stage.

Cheers

I'm offering the following thoughts at least as much to get some feedback from more experienced brewers as to answer the original questions. If I'm wrong please tell me how and why.


As far as I can tell, the two main reasons for decanting are if you ferment your starter at high temps or aerate it during ferment. These will step it up faster but may also add estery flavours and oxidation flavours to your brew. If you take time and step up, fermenting the starter as you would a beer you can pour it straight in. My starters I usually try and keep ferment temps down and late aeration to a minimum so I use the whole beer. However if stepping up from a small amount I would assume that the yeast may be underpitched and may get stressed, releasing further bad flavours which is another reason for discarding.

My interpretation of stepping up from one litre to three is to start with one litre, ferment out, add one more litre, ferment out, then add one more litre. Discard beer, use slurry.

The few times I've stepped up I've done it slightly differently (normally I make a starter straight from a wyeast pack or from a reasonable sized saved slurry). I've made an approximate 1040 wort with DME, added yeast and waited till krausen. The beers I'm stepping up for are in no chill cubes so I add a bit of wort from those to introduce the profile, wait for krausen, add a bit more, wait for krausen etc until I have what I consider to be a good size starter. Very unscientific.

As for saving slurry - I've been doing that for a while and I just use boiled cooled water in a longneck (sanitised etc). Half full of water, capped and in the fridge. remove from frifdge day before brewday and let come to ambient then make my starter. Always taken off like a yoghurt cracker with salmon on toast in 50 degree heat.

Not sure why you'd want to carbonate any of your slurry.

 

[Dazza_devil]

I'm starting to think this is all a lot of stuffing about, uneccessarily.
So what if the yeast slurry I keep from my brew is 2nd generation, I'll have enough 2nd generation yeast to brew 100 brews with the same yeast in one year.
If I was to calculate the number of brews I brew with the same yeast in one year I don't think it's gonna be many at all. Viability after 1 year has got to be questionable and diminished in the least. I'm taking the same risks of infection making starters and keeping samples, probably more, that I'm taking with my brew.
I like to have a lot of variation between brews with yeast so I might use as many different ones as I can. I've only got to get 2 brews from a wyeast pack make it cheaper than dried packets and it still works out pretty cheap. I'm not brewing to make cheap beer anyway, I'm doing it make good beer. I doubt if any of the sediment from other ingredients in the slurry is going to be enough to affect the flavour of a brew if cultured up. I'm thinking pitch the wyeast pack into around a litre of cooled wort and while the main wort is cooling it'll be at high krausen by the time I pitch it, perfect, easy. On bottling day, bottle the dregs into stubbies and there's a shitload of the stuff to make a few brews out of. I could wash the slurry I suppose but I doubt that would make a scrap of difference either.
Whatya's reckon?

 

[rude]

Have been thinking about starter step ups as I muffed my last wyeast 3068 effort

So Ive purchased a stir bar & use my stir plate now 1.5 litres is equiverlent to a 4 litre simple starter on mr malty anyway.

 

[manticle]

Whatya's reckon?

Like all things brewing related it can be as easy or as complicated as you like. Try a method out, see if it works for you and go from there.

 

[BoilerBoy]

I never smack a Wyeast pack anymore and probably haven't for 3 years or so, I generally make a 2-3L starter then pour 100-150ml of that starter into a small conical flask and put the rest into the fridge.

Next I cut open the yeast pack (unsmacked) and pour all of it into a small PET bottle and then tip some out into the small flask containing the 100-150ml starter.

The PET bottle containing the rest of the yeast (which is first generation) is covered with cool boiled water and kept in the fridge like a yeast bank for wnenever I need it, then I just repeat the above process with the started wort. With the yeast I just pour off some of the water, tip out some yeast and recover with cooled boiled water, its been good like this for usually 12 months

When the small starter has taken off I add another litre and then later the rest of the starter and when its all fermented out the starter goes back into the fridge until brew day where all the spent starter wort is poured off and 1 litre of the new batch is added, after 4-6 hours (sometimes less) the yeast is up and firing and then pitched.

You get to use that yeast for as many times as you want over 12 months and then if its no good just buy another one!

IMHO I think its simple,

Cheers,
BB

 

[praxis178]

So this is how I was taught to build up a starter.....

Sterilise the yeast lab (trigger pack with 85%ABV ethanol spray every surface you might come into contact with), now take a scraping from the parent slant, and suspend in first stage growth medium (1.040SG sugar and nutrient solution) 1L, aerate and store at 30C (really room temp is fine) for 24hrs, re-suspend this into the second stage growth medium (same base solution) 30L, aerate and ferment at 25C for 36hrs. This last stage is important! Now super aerate your final stage growth medium (1500L ideally this one is kept at near the SG of what the yeast will be going into) with medical grade O2 and stabilise temp at 18C, cool stage two to 18C and pitch. Do not aerate the third stage further, and as you use this starter top up as required with new sterilised growth medium.

Ok so I learnt my yeast wrangling at a large winery, but the principal still holds and the process does scale down some what, if you can get the starter up to the 1L mark, unless you're making lagers or doing batches bigger than 30L, you really are good to go.

I would not be keen on using my food fridge to store my yeast "slants" in (regardless of if it's in a urine sample bottle or whatever it's still a slant to me), too big a risk of infection, so many foods use yeasts of one kind or another as part of the processing some are ok for what we are doing, but others like those used in preserved meats aren't. A good slant can be kept for ~5years before problems start solong as you do the keeping at 0-1C, for longer you will need cryo-storage, the main problem to watch out for is mutation....

Right so with all that said, I'm off to make up a starter for Sunday, doing it tonight, cause I know I won't have time tomorrow!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

two reasons to do a starter

1) to get some growth and to pitch actively fermenting yeast into your beer to reduce lag

2) to target a specific pitching rate of cells per ml

Two ways to do a starter depending on which reason you are doing it

1) - grow your starter with wort at reasonably close to your main wort strength, grow your starter at about the same temperature as the main brew will be, pitch the whole lot at high Krausen. Get a little cell count increase, pitch health alive and kicking yeast without shocking it with wither temp or gravity.

2) - grow your starter at the optimum conditions for yeast growth. Which are "about" 22C and 1.040 with continuous aeration or stirring. Let it ferment out and settle, decant the spent growth medium (beer) off the starter and just pitch the yeast. Get the right amount of good healthy yeast - ready to either fire up using method (1) or to just pitch directly

For me the ideal way to "step up" a starter is to let it finish, decant the spent beer, add new wort. But that takes a long time because the settling stage takes longer than the growing stage - so what I usually do is... If I have 1L and I am stepping up to 5L - I let it go for two days on the stir plate, and add 4L of 1.050 wort, which (on the probably incorrect assumption that the 1L has fermented completely) adds up to a total of 5L @ 1.040

I let this completely ferment out, chill it in the fridge for a few days and pitch the slurry

The routine I just used to get an approx 5L of starter for my Kolsch is - 1 loop of yeast from slant into 10ml of wort for 24hrs - 10ml into 250ml on the stirplate for 24rs - 250ml into 2L on the stir plate for 24-36hrs - 2L into 4.75L on the stirplate till it stop fermenting - chill - decant.

The 2L - 4.75L stage done by adding the whole 2L starter to a 5L flask with 2.75L of 1.070 wort - so a total of 4.75L @ 1.040 if the 2L had completely fermented. So near enough.

How you split and store your yeast... is a separate issue to how you grow your starters. You store yeast to save money - You grow starters to improve your beer

 

[rude]

The last 3 post have really helped me cheers I was really after that sort of advice for making starters.

 

[Nick JD]

Not sure why you'd want to carbonate any of your slurry.

I thought about this for ages and came up with - if there's any dodgy stuff introduced ino the bottle via bottling, then an active yeast is going to be more agressive than a dormant one.

 

[puffer555]

I found this Podcast on Yeast Starters pretty interesting and informative:

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-St...-Yeast-Starters

Answers a lot of the questions from OP.

 

[Dazza_devil]

I have been chilling and then decanting beer off my starter before pitching, I was just curious about the need for decanting and chilling between stepping up the starter. If fermenting out, chilling and then decanting I was curious about this method creating a next generation and an opening for mutation. Also major and multiple temperature variations in a short time span possibly affecting yeast quality.
My last method for saving slurry was to swirl up the fermented out 3 litre starter, fill 3 stubbies with starter beer and pitch the rest after chilling and decanting. I fed the slurry with around a litre of the batch wort prior to pitching at high krausen. I didn't feed my saved yeast samples, just capped them with beer from the starter and let them settle out in the fridge for storage. I wasn't sure if a carbonation drop in the stubbies of saved starter would be of benefit by producing some CO2 to fend off possible infection. Perhaps feeding the samples LDME would be more appropriate. The fact that it would be carbonated wasn't of concern.
My reckoning for this method gives me a third generation of yeast at pitching.

 

[TidalPete]

I make starters from both agar-based slants & Wyeast (Unsmacked) smack packs.

TTBOMK starters from a slant are "0" generation & starters from a split unsmacked Wyeast smack pack are 1st generation. I am happy to be corrected on this however. :unsure:

My methods of getting the most from a Wyeast smack pack is to split the (Unsmacked) pack into 6 or so tubes, use them all until I farm the 2nd last one (2nd gen) thus leaving the last tube of 1st gen untouched in case anything goes wrong.

Also happy to be corrected on my belief that if you "smack" a Wyeast smack pack, make up a starter with it & then split the starter into "X" number of tubes or whatever you are just wasting a generation of yeast unnecessarily as the consequent yeast will be 2nd generation?

If you are happy to spend the time propagating your yeasts from slants then as long as you renew your slants every 12 months or so you will have an indefinite supply of the original yeast on hand.
The success of any yeast propagation\farming technique depends on a strict regime of proper work practises & cleanliness.

the ideal way to "step up" a starter is to let it finish, decant the spent beer, add new wort. But that takes a long time because the settling stage takes longer than the growing stage

Agree with Thirsty Boy here re the decanting & settling. Better to let your full volume of starter finish, chill & allow to drop out, decant surplus wort, warm to fermentation temp & then add to fermenter (preferably into the empty fermenter & drop the wort on top for extra oxidation.

T

 

[paulwolf350]

I make starters from both agar-based slants & Wyeast (Unsmacked) smack packs.

TTBOMK starters from a slant are "0" generation & starters from a split unsmacked Wyeast smack pack are 1st generation. I am happy to be corrected on this however. :unsure:

My methods of getting the most from a Wyeast smack pack is to split the (Unsmacked) pack into 6 or so tubes, use them all until I farm the 2nd last one (2nd gen) thus leaving the last tube of 1st gen untouched in case anything goes wrong.

Also happy to be corrected on my belief that if you "smack" a Wyeast smack pack, make up a starter with it & then split the starter into "X" number of tubes or whatever you are just wasting a generation of yeast unnecessarily as the consequent yeast will be 2nd generation?

If you are happy to spend the time propagating your yeasts from slants then as long as you renew your slants every 12 months or so you will have an indefinite supply of the original yeast on hand.
The success of any yeast propagation\farming technique depends on a strict regime of proper work practises & cleanliness.


Agree with Thirsty Boy here re the decanting & settling. Better to let your full volume of starter finish, chill & allow to drop out, decant surplus wort, warm to fermentation temp & then add to fermenter (preferably into the empty fermenter & drop the wort on top for extra oxidation.

T

So Pete, you dont recover yeast from your fermenter?
I dont split my yeast pack at all, I smack it, make a starter and use it in my first beer. Then after fermentatin and packaging I then recover the trub, into steralised bottles and use them according to how many cells I need.

I generally half fill a tallie with slurry, top if off with boiled water, cap and store it in the fridge until i need it. Then i swirl it up let the trub settle out and decant the yeast slurry in suspension into my wort or starter.

This way I generally get 1x first gen, 3x second gen, 9x third gen, by then i usually chuck it and start again. However i have used it up into 5th and 6 generations like this.

Is this an acceptablr way to yeast farm? or should i be splitting at Generation 1?


Paul

 

[mxd]

I am planning to make a starter for a brew I plan to stert fermenting tomorrow, how long do I let the "starter" start ?

 

[Dazza_devil]

Now that's a good question

 

[Screwtop]

I am planning to make a starter for a brew I plan to stert fermenting tomorrow, how long do I let the "starter" start ?

Starter should be pitched at high krausen, how ever long that takes depending on your yeast strain, starter wort, use of aeration, yeast nutrient and starter wort temp. Remember to use a pitching rate calculator to determine the required starter volume.

Screwy

 

[glaab]

making a starter from the smack pack and splitting it up seems less risky, infection wise, than harvesting from the yeast cake. I do similar to nick and phoneyhuh. Make 3L wort @ 1040 with 1/4 tsp yeast nutrient, put 1L in a sanitised 2l coke bottle and 2L into 5L growler. Add smack pack to coke bottle then after high krausen add that to the growler/ demijon. When it's finished syphon the clear stuff off then shake it and divide into 6 pet bottles. That's MrMalty;s method, more or less.