Yeast Of The Week 21/4/09 - Kolsch - Wlp029/wyeast 2565

[Benniee]

This is my first attempt at a Kolsch after having one at Potters brewery so it was good to read that Keith uses the 2565 in his brew (great drop by the way). My starter took a while to go off but now that its in the fermenter at 17 degrees its going nuts. I have never seen so much krausen and it only took off sunday arvo. I've read that its a hard yeast to clear out so my question is, what is the optimum fermenting schedule for this beer and yeast? Usually i primary any beer for 5 days, collect the yeast slurry, then secondary for a week or so, but should i do it different this time? We have a temp. controlled fridge so no problems there. Cheers!

I'm yet to brew a Kolsch (it's 3rd in line on my brewing schedule), but from talking to other brewers and reading some info on the yeast the options appear to be crash chill then filter to remove any remaining yeast in suspension, or a long, cold lagering period to get the yeast to drop out.

Not having a filter I'll be going for the long lagering time - probably with some finings added to speed up the process a little.

Good luck with it - let us know what option(s) you take and how they work for you.

Benniee

 

[jakester]

Thanks Benniee, i was thinking a crash chill would be the way to go but will have to do some research for temps and how long for i guess. I was just thinking after secondary dropping the temp down to 3 or 4 degrees for a couple of days? Does that sound right?
I do have a filter that i have not used in ages, might use that on my next one to see what the difference will be. Bit of playnig around never hurt anyone.

 

[BoilerBoy]

I thought I would drag up this old thread to see if anyone has experience with the Wyeast 2565 strain and using starters.

I've read a lot about this yeast not flocculating readily - so how do people handle their starters (if they're using one)? I would regularly decant the liquid off the starter before pitching the slurry - but if I do this using my normal procedure (crash chilling for 24 hours or so) then I'm likely to discard a fair portion of the yeast that remain in suspension and only select the more flocculant cells to pitch into my wort.

Anyone have any experience good, bad or otherwise when making a starter for this yeast?

Benniee

Given a reasonable starters size I would just stick to your normal routine and it should be fine and if your still concerned just chill the starter a few days longer.

cheers,
BB

 

[jimi]

Dragging this up again as I was wondering how people went using this yeast for lagers (pseudo) and how its performed?

I know a lot of micro's use it for their lagers, mostly for the quicker turn around, but they have filtering facilities which often we don't (ok I don't). since these yeasts take ages to floc did these faux lagers actually come up quicker or did people fine them out quicker?

I'm particularly itching for an oktoberfest, alt & schwarzbier and was wondering how 2565 would go?

Cheers Jimi

 

[DJR]

An alt is an ale

I have used it (2565) in a basic schwarzbier (mostly pils, some carafa/caramunich and about 15-20% munich) and it was pretty good, but it won't come out malty like a lager yeast will. For an Oktoberfest i'd use a lager yeast, for sure. The kolsch yeast just won't give you the same malt profile as a good lager yeast. It's clean though particularly at low temps (sub 15C) where it won't create the flowery/estery profile, but you will get a load of sulfur at those temps and the WLP029 has a specific instruction not to let it run that low.

If you want a fairly robust lager yeast i'd go for the swiss s-189 yeast or another good versatile choice is Whitelabs WLP833

 

[jimi]

An alt is an ale

I have used it (2565) in a basic schwarzbier (mostly pils, some carafa/caramunich and about 15-20% munich) and it was pretty good, but it won't come out malty like a lager yeast will. For an Oktoberfest i'd use a lager yeast, for sure. The kolsch yeast just won't give you the same malt profile as a good lager yeast. It's clean though particularly at low temps (sub 15C) where it won't create the flowery/estery profile, but you will get a load of sulfur at those temps and the WLP029 has a specific instruction not to let it run that low.

If you want a fairly robust lager yeast i'd go for the swiss s-189 yeast or another good versatile choice is Whitelabs WLP833

Hi DJR
Wyeast recommends 2565 for both types of ALTs as it is a kind of hybrid beer (ale that traditionally gets lagered).
Wyeast also states that it will ferment well in the 13-16C range so I wasn't expecting much sulfur. Was the sulfur something you've experienced? If so did you pitch cold (sub 15)?

 

[DJR]

Hi DJR
Wyeast recommends 2565 for both types of ALTs as it is a kind of hybrid beer (ale that traditionally gets lagered).
Wyeast also states that it will ferment well in the 13-16C range so I wasn't expecting much sulfur. Was the sulfur something you've experienced? If so did you pitch cold (sub 15)?

Heh - sorry, was splitting hairs as you were talking about lagers and then referred to alt, which as you say are hybrids

WLP029 is the one that has "reported problems" with cold ferments - i've used 2565 and it's fine. I prefer WLP029 as it has some level of flocculation (2565 doesn't, it just settles, v.slowly) and i find the flavour profile better. I find both of them throw a bit of sulfur during the ferment but it goes away with some time, just like lager yeasts really

 

[np1962]

From the Whitelabs FAQ for this yeast(WLP029)

I wonder if you could help me with my Kolsch. I'm looking to brew this as my next batch (40L). I notice from your information about WLP029 that it shouldn't be fermented at any less than 62F, which according to my calculations is 16.7C. What is your advice here?

For WLP029, people can experience problems under 16C, so we recommend that temperature, but many do ferment cooler. You just have to be more careful and keep an eye on the fermentation. With 029, you dont need to ferment that cool anyway to get the clean flavors, you can cool it during fermentation if you like, but I wouldnt the first time and see what you think.

In the description it recommends keeping above 16C EXCEPT during active fermentation, not real sure what they mean by this.

Cheers
Nige

 

[jimi]

To date I've only used 2565 for a Kolsch, which came up nice, but I ran it a bit above 16C (about 17-18C for much of the ferment) and got just a touch of a chardonnay flavour that I was told is true to traditional Kolsch. It seemed appropriate for the Kolsch, but I wouldn't want it in a lager. If/when I use it for a lager I'll pitch extra big and keep it lower than the 16C.
Am I correct in assuming whitelabs & wyeast strains differ a bit in the sub 16C performance, or is that just wishful thinking??

I notice some sulfur during the ferment with 2565 but absolutely nothing in my finished beer. I've tasted sulfur once in a micro which I know was using this for their lager though.

 

[np1962]

To date I've only used 2565 for a Kolsch, which came up nice, but I ran it a bit above 16C (about 17-18C for much of the ferment) and got just a touch of a chardonnay flavour that I was told is true to traditional Kolsch. It seemed appropriate for the Kolsch, but I wouldn't want it in a lager. If/when I use it for a lager I'll pitch extra big and keep it lower than the 16C.
Am I correct in assuming whitelabs & wyeast strains differ a bit in the sub 16C performance, or is that just wishful thinking??

I notice some sulfur during the ferment with 2565 but absolutely nothing in my finished beer. I've tasted sulfur once in a micro which I know was using this for their lager though.

According ot MrMalty the WLP029 is from PJ Frh, Kln while the WY2565 is Weihenstephan 165, Kln
Again from the Whitelabs site

WLP029 German Ale/ Klsch Yeast
From a small brewpub in Cologne, Germany, this yeast works great in Klsch and Alt style beers. Good for light beers like blond and honey. Accentuates hop flavors, similar to WLP001. The slight sulfur produced during fermentation will disappear with age and leave a super clean, lager like ale.
Attenuation: 72-78%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 65-69F
(18-21C)
Does not ferment well less than 62F(17C), unless during active fermentation.
Alcohol Tolerance: Medium

Cheers
Nige

 

[sponge]

Time for a resurrection.. pitched a 3L decanted starter of WLP029 onto a kolsch (22L, 1.045). 16'C and 48hrs later, it has smashed its way down to 1.011. Bumped it up to 20'C after the 48hrs to finish off and looks pretty done at 1.009. Samples tasting pretty dam good.

Granted the beer won't be clear and still a bit young, but will force carb and see how it's going for some birthday celebrations on Saturday. Then I'll leave it alone for at least a month to 'lager'.

A summer ale is just about to be fermented with some of the slurry. Looking pretty good for a psuedo-lager yeast.

 

[danestead]

Time for a resurrection.. pitched a 3L decanted starter of WLP029 onto a kolsch (22L, 1.045). 16'C and 48hrs later, it has smashed its way down to 1.011. Bumped it up to 20'C after the 48hrs to finish off and looks pretty done at 1.009. Samples tasting pretty dam good.

Granted the beer won't be clear and still a bit young, but will force carb and see how it's going for some birthday celebrations on Saturday. Then I'll leave it alone for at least a month to 'lager'.

A summer ale is just about to be fermented with some of the slurry. Looking pretty good for a psuedo-lager yeast.

I've now used both brands of the Kölsch yeast. The White Labs version is clearing in the keg as we speak as I added some gelatine yesterday.

I found the Wyeast to throw some winey aromas but other than that was decent. It chomped through fermentation extremely quickly. It did also need gelatine to clear. I fermented at 15 degrees.

The White labs version I have on tap now was in the keg for a week and a half and still extremely cloudy so I added some gelatine yesterday. The water I used in the brew was fairly low in calcium so there is a chance that had a small part to do with the yeast flocculating. This yeast hasn't throw the winey aroma and as such, I much prefer it. Is it clean, no. Not like the Sunner Kölsch I had. However I really enjoy what the yeast has brought to the beer. I fermented at 18 degrees. It also fermented extremely quickly. I'm really starting to love these Kölschs. So simple and quick to brew and they taste excellent.

 

[kaiserben]

I really like the WLP029 and my recent 2 kolsch batches have turned out very similar to Sünner. I find Früh kolsch to be very bland in comparison to the Sünner and thus also bland in comparison to my own attempts at kolsch.

 

[danestead]

I really like the WLP029 and my recent 2 kolsch batches have turned out very similar to Sünner. I find Früh kolsch to be very bland in comparison to the Sünner and thus also bland in comparison to my own attempts at kolsch.

What temperature and what pitch rate did you use for this?

 

[kalbarluke]

I have used the 2565 a few times and I like it. Granted, I am not an AG Brewer but I still manage to get a pretty good kolsch with a few tricks. I find the key (as lots of people have already said) is fermenting at 16 (or 15) degrees. I use a bit of wheat malt (about 200-300g) and always use hallertaur hops (about 10g for 10 min). I have tried a few commercial versions of kolsch beers (like the 'top knot kolsch' from Green Beacon) and mine is pretty close and just as tasty.
I have never fermented high with it. The instructions say that if you ferment high you will get more fruity esters but IMHO you don't want that with a kolsch.

 

[rude]

2565 wyeast a few times also tried 1007 wyeast

Prefer 2565 & hop with Tettnanger GR but only to 21 IBU max

I usually cc for as long as I can 3 weeks min once did 6 weeks then leave in keg for as long as I can wait
bloody luvely :icon_drool2: :icon_drool2: one of my fav styles

Style nazies will be on me here h34r: but also do same grain bill pils touch of wheat with Notto

 

[kaiserben]

What temperature and what pitch rate did you use for this?

One batch was at 18C. Another at 19C.

Pitching rates:

For my first batch YeastCalc calculated that I'd need 268bn cells (23L of 1.047 wort on hybrid setting)
YeastCalc estimates that my 2.5L starter would get me to 250bn cells (stir plate, J Zainesheff) or 388bn (stir plate, K. Troester).
My actual brew day numbers (I got less volume than estimated for) suggested I'd really only need 235bn cells, so I had ensured that I pitched above the required amount.

For my second batch I pitched a slurry I'd saved from the above yeast cake (about half, unwashed) as well as 1 fresh pack of WLP029 (direct pitch, no starter). It was a bit of a balls-up and I coulodn't tell you how many viable cells I would've had there.

 

[danestead]

One batch was at 18C. Another at 19C.

Pitching rates:

For my first batch YeastCalc calculated that I'd need 268bn cells (23L of 1.047 wort on hybrid setting)
YeastCalc estimates that my 2.5L starter would get me to 250bn cells (stir plate, J Zainesheff) or 388bn (stir plate, K. Troester).
My actual brew day numbers (I got less volume than estimated for) suggested I'd really only need 235bn cells, so I had ensured that I pitched above the required amount.

For my second batch I pitched a slurry I'd saved from the above yeast cake (about half, unwashed) as well as 1 fresh pack of WLP029 (direct pitch, no starter). It was a bit of a balls-up and I coulodn't tell you how many viable cells I would've had there.

Sounds like you did the same as me. I found sunner kölsch very clean like a lager so maybe my beer will clean up as the yeast drops out.

 

[Killer Brew]

Used Wyeast 2565 for the first time in a recent Kolsch batch. Fermented out well with good taste but man it is hard to get that yeast to drop out. Added polyclar and held at -1c for over a week and still cloudy. Couldn't wait any longer and had to bottle it to clear the way for my next batch. Will try lagering it once bottle conditioning completes but will be up against it to have it ready for the state comp deadline at end of August.

 

[cliffo]

I find Kolsch with 2565 is one beer (well, along with lagers) that I always need/choose to filter.

Just never seems to clear sufficiently otherwise.