Yankee Biab

[katzke]

4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise pH. katzke will tell you as I have no idea - my water is the opposite to yours! Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer. That's the part I need to figger out

Most beers stay in my primary for three weeks, come up the night before bottling to sit on the counter.

First I am sure you do but do you cover your fermentor? If not it could be light that is part of your problem.

I suggest you look in your library and see what brewing books they have. I am sure it was Brewing Classic Styles that has some of the water profile info I am using. It is not complete and I found it in the back with the recipes but you need to pull it out. This is my starting point. I do some things others may not do but I had one real bad brew and one stuck ferment. After playing with my water my brews have been better so I will not go back.

So what I do is basically raise my Magnesium to the range of 15ppm. Raise the calcium to my target. Then play with the Sulfate/Chloride ratio for the flavor balance I am after. I will raise the Sodium based on the profile I got out of the book. I play with all of this till it is close and the Carbonate or Hardness is in the range I need for the beer. All of this I do in Brewater. I then enter the result into Palmers Excel spreadsheet I modified to allow Canning Salt as an addition. I may need to play with the numbers a bit to match my recipe color. I take the final numbers and convert them to grains as I have a reloading scale I use to weigh out the additions. My mash pH has been right on every time. I even had to add acid to my last brew just as predicted.

One thing I did was to enter your water profile into Palmers spreadsheet and it has a bit of an error in my mind. It says that your profile is on the Malty side. I do not think you have enough Chloride to make much difference based on what I have read but Pilsner water is low in numbers and the profile I have is even balanced at 1 to 1.

Here are some links, in no particular order that may help everyone learn more about water. http://hbd.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...tanding_Mash_pH

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:gJKrD...lient=firefox-a

http://netbeer.org/content/view/13/42/lang,en/

http://www.geocities.com/pensansbrewery/pr...es_premash.html

http://madfermentationist.blogspot.com/200...t-has-made.html

http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/tom/brewingwater.htm

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/.../www/water.html

If you read all these you will know as much as I do about water for brewing. As you read you may find some do not exactly agree but that is part of the fun of discerning information.

Here is the link to Brewater and more water info. http://home.roadrunner.com/~brewbeer/ You can get Palmers Spreadsheet from the online book.

 

[daddymem]

Thanks.

The buckets are light proof. My better bottle or glass carboy wear an apron while on the counter and aren't in direct sunlight anyways. Cellar storage and bedroom storage are also away from windows and don't get light.

I forgot to mention above that I usually brew one clear glass bottle and put that on a shelf in the kitchen. I can see the progress of the beer that way. That is the one I usually chill and drink first to try.

As I go through my beers made since October 08 (not in order of brew):

AHS Bavarian Hefeweizen extract, White Labs WLP300-Nothing wrong here
AHS Gold Seal Dry Stout extract with alcohol boost pack, Windsor Ale Dry yeast-fruity-temperatures were too high fermenting
AHS Gold Seal Holday Ale extract with alcohol boost pack, Nottingham Ale-fruity-temperatures were too high fermenting
AHS Gold Seal American Pale Ale extract with alcohol boost pack, Nottingham Ale-sour, fruity, total mess-too high fermenting, infection assumed
Brewer's Best German Altbier extract, Nottingham-cardboardy
English Pale Ale, Brewer's Best extract, Nottingham-funny bandaidy, cardboardy
Red Ale, Brewer's Best extract, added 1 oz Hallertauer dry hopped, Nottingham-funny bandaidy, cardboardy
Group brew DIPA, extract, S-05, dry hopped cascade and centennial-Incredible beer! Not enough made! Needed to settle out more or use gelatin, lots of bottle sediment.
Blonde Ale, recipe, BIAB, Nottingham-Nothing wrong except not enough made!
Scarborough Faire Ale, recipe, extract, Nottingham-Sage needs to drop back a lot more to be drinkable, aging now
AHS Dunkelweisen, BIAB, Wyeast 3068-Scarborough Faire leached into bucket, can taste faint sage flavor, aging in hopes of losing sage flavor
Big Brew Day SS Minnow Mild Brown, recipe, BIAB, London Ale Liquid Yeast-Used friends city water, has a chlorophenoly flavor
Apfelwein, no boil, Montrachet dry yeast and yeast energizer-great stuff! Not enough made!
Cranberry hard cider, no boil, Nottingham-Tart, aging now.
Brewmaster's Warehouse Kolsch, BIAB, liquid Kolsch yeast-carbonating now
Brewmaster's Warehouse Haus Pale Ale, BIAB, Nottingham-second week in fermenter now
Graff, recipe, DME with specialty grains, Nottingham or S05, I forgot-Great stuff! Not enough made!

 

[daddymem]

Above should say I BOTTLE one clear bottle.

 

[daddymem]

What about this stuff?
http://morebeer.com/view_product/19873

 

[daddymem]

My BIAB Kolsch is outstanding! Maybe my water profile is good for that style of beer (similar to pilsner?) and not so good for the ones that taste a bit off.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Try brewing a helles - similar to a kolsch in a lot of ways. Then try a pilsner. All three very pale beers, but one of them hoppy. If all of them work - then you know you are good for pale beers, with or without hops. Then try the same on darker beers, something malty like an irish red or a scottish 70 ale, but very few hops, then do one with hops...

See where it is that the flavour you dont like comes back -- or, it might have had nothing to do with the water in the first place. Might have been malt or yeast or many things.

Like I said - your brewing water would make many a brewer salivate with envy.

TB


Oh btw - I like the 5.2 ... completely takes the pH issue out of the equation. Put in the 5.2 and never think about it again. I havfe a tub and use it when I remember to (most of the time)

 

[daddymem]

Given the pales tasting good so far (Kolsch, Blonde) and the darker low hops having an off flavor (Irish Red, Altbier, Dry Stout), we may be on to something here. If so, that is fine by me. I can build the water a bit for darker low hop beers. I hope to someday do a doppelbock in the Ayinger style, that's why I want to get this down. My beers are fine but I want to be able to brew special beers and nail them.

 

[mini 1l]

Another Yankee from Massachusetts trying BIAB for the first time........

I'v been lurking around AussieHomeBrewer's forum for a couple of months researching BIAB. I compiled pages and pages of notes on various aspects/concerns/techniques and finally pulled the trigger this past Sunday. I used BIAB to brew an APA and managed to pull an 80% efficiency into the fermentor. My LHBS totally laughed at me when I told him about BIAB and my plans. Time will tell, but the wort look awesome going into the fermentor.

Anyway, thanks to AussieHomeBrew and those who believe in BIAB.

 

[katzke]

Another Yankee from Massachusetts trying BIAB for the first time........

I'v been lurking around AussieHomeBrewer's forum for a couple of months researching BIAB. I compiled pages and pages of notes on various aspects/concerns/techniques and finally pulled the trigger this past Sunday. I used BIAB to brew an APA and managed to pull an 80% efficiency into the fermentor. My LHBS totally laughed at me when I told him about BIAB and my plans. Time will tell, but the wort look awesome going into the fermentor.

Anyway, thanks to AussieHomeBrew and those who believe in BIAB.

That is a common response from brewers and store owners. BIAB goes against everything they believe they know about brewing. I wanted to brew at our last club group brew but was not able to. It was fun watching the experts panic every time they had a hiccup with the brew they we working on. I just said I dont have that problem with my system. As it turned out the last group brew was lightly attended so it was not much of a lost opportunity. What I need to do is have everything ready as well as some beer and brew on Teach a Friend to Brew Day in November. I could really blow them away and have a no-chill beer kegged and brew a no-chill BIAB beer just to tweak them the most. It would have many advantages as I adjust my brewing water and the brew is in a different town. Bring my water in a cube and take home wort in the same cube. After the club loosing a glass carboy on the way to the last brew they may be interested in no-chill.

Back to your point. It takes a free spirit to BIAB in the USA.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Another Yankee from Massachusetts trying BIAB for the first time........

I'v been lurking around AussieHomeBrewer's forum for a couple of months researching BIAB. I compiled pages and pages of notes on various aspects/concerns/techniques and finally pulled the trigger this past Sunday. I used BIAB to brew an APA and managed to pull an 80% efficiency into the fermentor. My LHBS totally laughed at me when I told him about BIAB and my plans. Time will tell, but the wort look awesome going into the fermentor.

Anyway, thanks to AussieHomeBrew and those who believe in BIAB.

Top work Mini,

take your LHBS owner a bottle of that beer when its done and good ... and see if he laughs then.

Of course -- if its crappy, say nothing and hide till you brew a good one

Nah - any lingering doubts about the ability of BIAB to make top class beer, are fast receding into the sunset. You can make award winning beer with your bag, and don't you let anyone tell you different.

Welcome to the club ... we need a name really.

Saggy Baggers??

Perhaps we could be the first international brewclub?

PP for president ..... then we stage a Coup de Grce later on when we discover that he is really a crazed despot bent on ruling for life ... -- ah what the hell. I'd still vote for him.


TB

 

[daddymem]

Haus Pale Ale tastes awesome...weird thing though. No off flavors....until you burp. Then a slight hint of chlorophenols. I think that is the best descriptor. I tasted some friend's beer that uses city water for top off and I get the chlorophenol taste in droves. So how am I getting it in my beer is the question. No chlorine in our water. Oxyclean for the bottles only. Iodophor at 1 teaspoon per 1-1/2 gallons of water. Only thing left would be infection? Or...can bleach leach into plastic buckets? If so, how to get rid of it? I'm unemployed right now so tossing out my buckets and getting new isn't a great option right now.

 

[daddymem]

Ok...why not push the envelope?

Our homebrew club is planning to do a partigyle. We figured, why not melt our different techniques at the same time? Instead of a pair of beers, we thought we could do two big beers and combine second runnings into a third big beer. There is the partigyle part.

The technique part is to use my BIAB and my buddy's batch sparge in a cooler method. Sound fun yet? Figuring out the batch sparge doesn't seem to be too hard, there are a few posts out there about partigyle so I think we can figure it out. The questions arise in the BIAB.

Would you mash, yank the bag out, squeeze a little and determine the OG in the kettle, squeeze more until you hit your target then dunk sparge and squeeze out in the second kettle for second runnings? Use something like this to determine your initial grains?: http://www.astrocaver.com/java/Parti-Gyle.html

Our idea is:
a batch sparge Quad: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator...0&item=8510
a BIAB Tripel: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator...2&item=8511
Second runnings from both into a Dubbel: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator...1&item=8512

Of course all recipes need to be adjusted up in grains to provide our second runnings OG, but we haven't nailed down the exacts yet, this is a work in progress. Any suggestions?

 

[daddymem]

No BIAB partigyle experience out there?

 

[RdeVjun]

No BIAB partigyle experience out there?

Damn, was going to do one as a trial yesterday but got lazy! I did a BIAB batch of my house ale and the efficiency was a bit lower than normal so I seriously thought about a partigyle, but the questions about process and quantities threw me, and seeing as I was still a bit dusty it was beyond my mental capacity at the time. But alas, now I'm just pressed for time (off to work :angry: ) but will revisit it with my next batch.
:beerbang:

 

[katzke]

No BIAB partigyle experience out there?

Guess Not.

My first impression when I looked at your post a few days ago was you are off on your efficiency on a big beer. Do some research and I think you will find mashes in the 1.1 gravity range are down in the 60s and not 75%.

One other problem you may have is mash tuns usually have dead space with some high gravity wort left behind. That helps add sugar to the second runnings. Plus when collecting the first runnings the brewer usually stops when they collect all the wort they need for the big beer. So there is wort left in the grain with more sugar in it.

With BIAB you collect all the wort but what is left in the grain. All the sugar that is left behind is what is left in the wet grain as we have no leftover wort in a tun to deal with. I have never heard of a dunk sparger testing the sparge water to see what the gravity is from rinsing the grain out. There is some but I doubt it is close to what is left in a mash tun from the leftovers of a high gravity mash destined for a second brew.

Only one way to find out. Brew it.

 

[Bribie G]

I think that parti-gyle is very uncommon in Australia, but with BIAB it would be a great way of producing a half batch of a very big beer of the Theakston Old Peculier style and a half batch of a mild out of the spargings. I may give it a try, my LHBS has some very interesting small fermenters which look like they hold 10 litres but are a 'cut down' version of the HDPE 'barrel' fermenters we nearly always use here.

I have read about Parti-Gyle in old Victorian era books. Just to refresh me, I take it the first brew was made from the first runnings. Then fresh liquor was put in. Did they then do an immediate sparge for the second runnings or did they mash on a bit longer before sparging?
As I BIAB in an electric urn I'm wondering what I would do with the first runnings while I'm mashing the second lot, as I don't have a separate boiler.

 

[Bongchitis]

I like the idea of a partigyle and as I am just starting biab, I have been looking around a little for some info. Clean Brewer here did a Barley Wine and then made a ~1025 OG Partigyle from the second runnings if I remember correctly. Brewing a Barleywine is the title and was posted in the AG section a couple of months back. I have to go find it myself now.

Good luck and please post your results.

Bong


Edit: Sorry, originally thought it was a BIAB brew so less helpfull than I thought but does have some pics etc of the partigyle vs BW. An interesting read and I'm sure you can work something out via BIAB judging by your previous posts.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Parti gyle will work with BIAB no problems - How strong your first runnings are compared to your second runnings, simply depends on the L:G ratio you initially use. Stock BIAB of course, puts all the water in at once and therefore first runnings are = to last runnings... the less strike water you use and the more sparge water you use, the closer you will get to it being exactly the same as a traditional parti-gyle brew.

It actually doesn't matter all that much - just work out your total volume of water required for the whole 2 brews and use half for the first runnings and half for the second (assuming you want equal volumes - if not, just go proportional) - then after you have mashed and sparged, equal out the volumes (you will have more in the second runnings due to no absorption by the grain), then take a sample of the gravities and just blend them till each one has the gravity you want. Take 2 x 1 litre jugs, dip a jug full out of each pot and pour it into the other... strong pot gets weaker.. weak pot gets stronger. Till you get what you want. This is what the part-gyle brewers of old were doing. With a little tweaking and thinking, you can get each batch to the ratio of total volume you want and also the proportion of the total gravity you want - all with a little jug work.

You can add a little DME or sugar to either to raise the total gravity, you can add water to either to lower the total gravity, you can steep some coloured malt in either so that one doesn't even need to have the same malt properties as the other.

BIAB can do pretty much anything that batch sparging can do - and partigyle is just batch sparging after all. Its all just a matter of whether you have the extra gear needed and can be bothered with the mucking about. I have tried... and I cant think of any of the method variations in brewing, that cant be tweaked for BIAB. Decoction... done it. Sour mash... done it. Cereal Mash... done it. Partigyle.... done it. Re-iterated mashing... done it (you could tweak this for partigyle really well and get super high gravity) - still trying to work out a beer I couldn't make, or a method I couldn't adapt, and do a BIAB brew.

TB

 

[daddymem]

Thanks guys. We're working this out still. I need input from my sparger on his works. But my thoughts are if we get 7.5 gallons (pre boil) for the primary beer and 3.5 gallons (pre boil) for the secondary beer from each batch and combine the 3.5 gallon portions for the 7 gallon third beer, we will be asking less of each mash tun than a typical partigyle (1/2 the additional sugars required). If our third beer doesn't turn out to be a Dubbel, that's fine, a saison, or belgian pale will work too. I've adjusted the batches using this spreadsheet I've created: https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0An...tuS1E&hl=en 20 plus pounds of grains for the BIAB (tripel). Good thing there are three of us.

Our target recipes haven't been finalized yet, this spreadsheet should help me do that. The 60% efficiency for big beers is a sparge number? What about BIAB, do the efficiencies fall with increasing OG?

What you said Thirsty makes sense and fits what I was envisioning. Shoot for 7.5 gallons pre boil for the first BIAB with a small/medium squeeze. Teabag dunk and big squeeze the second pot shooting for 3.5 gallons. Thanks for what to do next, that was the part I was trying to work out. Can I use quarts instead?

I was reading about the remashing method and thought that might be a good idea to try for the sparger, but again, I have no experience beyond watching him do it a couple times.

 

[daddymem]

Thanks Katzke. The recipe has been adjusted some since the first post. I'll shoot for 75% and the high end of the style spectrum and check out where 60% could get us and see if that is an acceptable level, or adjust the efficiency down. I think we are pretty loose on our targets, the main thing would be a quad, a tripel, and a dubbel/saison/belgian pale. We appear to be on the lower end for the sugar additions so we could bump those up a bit in the fermenter if need be. We're taking this as a challenge to do something we haven't done before and to blend some of our techniques. I'm a BIABer, one guy is a sparger, and the other is an extract with steeping grains guy. All three beers will get a little bit of each technique to some extent. Fun!