Yankee Biab

[crundle]

Either is good, but the key is to be able to get the same again and again. For repeatability without doing it yourself, I would probably opt for running through twice on standard setting.

I am currently corresponding with Pat on the issue of efficiency also, in an attempt to determine what my efficiency is, where to measure it etc. I had my last grain bill run through twice and did notice a higher starting gravity than I expected to get (measured at the same point as all my other brews) so I think it will make a difference, but as to how much, well that may take some experimentation to determine.

The main thing is that you are happy with your beers, and as long as you can reach the gravities you are targeting, you are doing fine.

cheers,

Crundle

 

[daddymem]

Still happy with my BIAB beers, on number 5 now. But I have a question about hot break. I've seen hot break in AG that looks like large corn flakes. But none of my BIAB brews have large particles, just lots of small clumps like baby rice cereal. Is hot break for BIAB different? No problems the beers all settle out nice, just curious.

 

[Bribie G]

Yes mine always looks like little breadcrumbs swirling around, I use whirlfloc and they settle out very well. Never seen the 'big' variety.

 

[daddymem]

Thanks! Wonder what the science is behind that...

 

[pdilley]

pH related. I wonder if thats why my last BIAB really didn't hot break like the previous. A pH meter is on my wishist bu would have come in handy to check it then and there and build up a series of samples. The grain bill was the same, just switched brands and barley type to local Australian grown malts.

 

[PistolPatch]

Pete, why not grab a pH roll? I have had one of these for at least 50 brews and it is only running out now. From what I gather, the pH meters can go downhill quickly.

I now just use acidulated malt to adjust and I probably don't even really need the pH paper anymore for every brew as I now know what works for each recipe (and there isn't much variance).

Interesting on the flakes Daddy. I know what you are talking about but can't remember which brews I get them on and which I don't as most of the time, I'm not looking. I can't imagine it is anything to worry about and I doubt it is BIAB related because I know I have seen both. I'll ask GryphonBrewing and get him to post here if he knows if there is a significance.

:icon_cheers:
Pat

 

[pdilley]

Cheers PP

I looked at strips at the LHBS but like those they stopped at 5.0. For doing Mead work I wanted something that could give readings down into the 3's as well which is why I started to look at meters. I hear but no experience that the tips last about a year if you get a meter with replaceable tips that is. However I never got one as no one at the time was listing the replacement tips as being for sale let alone the cost for each replacement.

I'll consider the paper again if it really bugs me. In the meantime I've been in the dark but still getting great results so I dont know what I may be missing

 

[daddymem]

pH would make sense. My brews at home are with my well water which has low pH for drinking water 6-6.5 from different labs. I've often wondered if I should be making an adjustment to at least bring it to normal drinking water standards. For potable water, the pH is mostly a problem for mechanicals, water heater and pipes, etc. But for beer, it has to have some effect. I find water adjustments for specific recipes, I'm more interested in should I get something to raise the starting pH for all my brews.

 

[katzke]

pH would make sense. My brews at home are with my well water which has low pH for drinking water 6-6.5 from different labs. I've often wondered if I should be making an adjustment to at least bring it to normal drinking water standards. For potable water, the pH is mostly a problem for mechanicals, water heater and pipes, etc. But for beer, it has to have some effect. I find water adjustments for specific recipes, I'm more interested in should I get something to raise the starting pH for all my brews.

Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash.

 

[PistolPatch]

In the meantime I've been in the dark but still getting great results so I dont know what I may be missing

Sounds good Pete :icon_cheers:

Don't expect too much though. As a generalisation, if your water tastes ok your beer will be ok. With average water, chances are pH won't make a spectacular difference to the taste of your beer especially if doing ales and dark lagers. This is a generalisation of course.

It's certainly good fun learning about pH and water chemistry and you may even be able to taste the difference especially if your palate grows or is already developed. I'm amazed at some new brewers ability to describe flavours, tastes etc. I can usually pick a difference but can never describe it

When you do find a problem in your beer it is great to know a bit about chemistry etc. For example, quality of malt changes each year and you might suddenly find yourself getting problems you never had before. Knowing the basics of how boil length, mash length, pH and other things affect a brew can help to quickly adjust to changing conditions.

The main thing is when exploring these more advanced things to not lose the forest from the trees. It is important to find a great recipe that you like and brew this regularly. This way any changes you make can be done with this brew first.

For example, today a brewer rang me and had problems with not getting the maltiness coming through in their beer. They had raised their mash temperature after reading a theory that thin mashes (like BIAB) produce a more fermentable wort. This idea has been regularly thrown around in the main BIAB thread and they changed their regime due to this and advice from one person. It is a myth...

Contrary to common belief no attenuation difference was seen between a thick mash (2.57 l/kg or 1.21 qt/lb) and a thin mash (5 l/kg or 2.37 qt/lb). Home brewing literature suggests that thin mashes lead to more fermentable worts, but technical brewing literature suggests that the mash concentration doesn't have much effect in well modified malts [Narziss, 2005]. Briggs cites data that doesn't show a change in fermentability when the mash thickness is changed [Briggs, 2004]. This was confirmed by these eperiments where all the data points were on the same curve that had already been established in the temperature experiment.

See here for full details.

So explore everything I reckon but be very careful what advice you take and question it hard. There is a fair bit of silly advice thrown around that is never contradicted.

Very glad to hear that you are pleased with your brews to date and are keen on exploring even more.

Donya Pete :icon_cheers:

 

[PistolPatch]

Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash.

You are obviously joking Tom. I'm going to chase up GB now who might give another quick lesson in pH if we're lucky

 

[katzke]

You are obviously joking Tom. I'm going to chase up GB now who might give another quick lesson in pH if we're lucky

No joke at all.

Read what I wrote "Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash."

The pH of the brewing water source has less to do with what goes on in the mash then the important brewing chemicals in the water. The big influence the pH has is how some calculations are made. I do not recall right now but at a level some assumptions of make up change. Yes it is all related that is why I said “little to do with”. It is the chemical reactions that occur in the mash that are ‘most important’ and you will not have any idea what will happen by pH alone.

That is why I said what I said. Adjusting the pH of the brewing water source is not a good idea at all. In fact it can do more harm then good as you can knock out the chemicals you want in the mash before you ever start to mash. It is the mash pH that is important not the source water pH.

Any blind adjustment to water is not a good idea unless you have the time and $ to keep brewing the same recipe over and over to get the results you want. It is best to know what is in your water, have a plan for treatment, and then make adjustments to get the profile you are after. Only then you will have a real good idea what your mash pH will be as well as the final taste profile of the beer.

 

[Katherine]

No joke at all.

Read what I wrote "Short answer, pH of the brewing water has little to do with what is going on in the mash."

The pH of the brewing water source has less to do with what goes on in the mash then the important brewing chemicals in the water. The big influence the pH has is how some calculations are made. I do not recall right now but at a level some assumptions of make up change. Yes it is all related that is why I said little to do with. It is the chemical reactions that occur in the mash that are most important and you will not have any idea what will happen by pH alone.

That is why I said what I said. Adjusting the pH of the brewing water source is not a good idea at all. In fact it can do more harm then good as you can knock out the chemicals you want in the mash before you ever start to mash. It is the mash pH that is important not the source water pH.

Any blind adjustment to water is not a good idea unless you have the time and $ to keep brewing the same recipe over and over to get the results you want. It is best to know what is in your water, have a plan for treatment, and then make adjustments to get the profile you are after. Only then you will have a real good idea what your mash pH will be as well as the final taste profile of the beer.

So are you saying that most of the brewers on here that adjust there ph are wasting there time?

 

[Katherine]

no - he is saying that adjusting the pH of your water is a waste of time.

Is it?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

No - he is saying (correctly) that the pH of your water doesn't matter very much - it is the pH of your mash that matters. When you adjust your water, you should be adjusting the chemistry of the water so that your mash pH is correct, those adjustments may or may not have much at all to do with the pH of the water itself.

And mash pH predominantly effects efficiency anyway - unless it is way way off target, then it will have minimal effect on flavour or anything much else.

Yeah yeah - I know it of course does have an effect on nearly everything in the mashing process... just not a large one. The oft mentioned 5.2 is a compromise between different processes that have different optimum pH levels and to be realistic about it, hitting a few points either side of it is going to make bugger all difference. As I said, mainly a marginal effect on efficiency.

PS sorry Katie - I had a wrong button pushing moment and thought I deleted my incomplete post before anyone would have seen it.

 

[daddymem]

I get making adjustments to meet a particular water profile. What I am saying is that my water has low pH to start with. Wouldn't a boost to 7 to put the water at a "normal" pH be a good idea? I'm not interested in diving in the deep end of water chemistry-yet. Just wondering if it would be a good idea to bring water that is a "off" back to "normal."
This is my water report:



Would manganese cause off flavors? I know my water is high and I have these low level off flavors in some of my beers. Hard to describe, even with a table of off flavor descriptions in front of you. Most people don't taste it but I do.,

 

[daddymem]

Oh and being fairly low in the other minerals, does that suggest a need for adjustment too?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

No - he is saying (correctly) that the pH of your water doesn't matter very much - it is the pH of your mash that matters.

And mash pH predominantly effects efficiency anyway - unless it is way way off target, then it will have minimal effect on flavour or anything much else.

Yeah yeah - I know it of course does have an effect on nearly everything in the mashing process... just not a large one. The oft mentioned 5.2 is a compromise between different processes that have different optimum pH levels and to be realistic about it, hitting a few points either side of it is going to make bugger all difference. As I said, mainly a marginal effect on efficiency.

PS sorry Katie - I had a wrong button pushing moment and thought I deleted my incomplete post before anyone would have seen it.

I can see where both of you are coming from but I think its confusing the issue. If you dont know the pH of your brewing liquor (water ), how are you going to correct it ?

TB:"Doesn't matter very much" .

So from your original water profile you don't take into account its residual alkalinity and temporary hardness ?

If you ignore this, you are just guessing at resulting mash pH.I think this is putting out the wrong message to new brewers. I believe this is the not intention , but still its confusing. You have to start with the original water profile then adjust to gain maximum benefits in process and efficiency.It does have a large effect, to start off ignoring this I believe is the wrong approach.

Quote TB :When you adjust your water, you should be adjusting the chemistry of the water so that your mash pH is correct, those adjustments may or may not have much at all to do with the pH of the water itself."

So adding Calcium ions, magnesium ions etc will not affect water pH ?

Please keep it simple for every body.Water pH is very important and should not be made insignificant.

New Biab brewers should aim to add their grain then confirm that the pH is with in 5.2-5.6 pH. This is only the beginning but the best way to start to explore water chemistry and resultant pH and its effects on the brewing process.

John Palmer in his online book "How to brew" has a very good intro into water chemistry and is a great place to start.
GB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I can see where both of you are coming from but I think its confusing the issue. If you dont know the pH of your brewing liquor (water ), how are you going to correct it ?

TB:"Doesn't matter very much" .

So from your original water profile you don't take into account its residual alkalinity and temporary hardness ?

If you ignore this, you are just guessing at resulting mash pH.I think this is putting out the wrong message to new brewers. I believe this is the not intention , but still its confusing. You have to start with the original water profile then adjust to gain maximum benefits in process and efficiency.It does have a large effect, to start off ignoring this I believe is the wrong approach.

Quote TB :When you adjust your water, you should be adjusting the chemistry of the water so that your mash pH is correct, those adjustments may or may not have much at all to do with the pH of the water itself."

So adding Calcium ions, magnesium ions etc will not affect water pH ?

Please keep it simple for every body.Water pH is very important and should not be made insignificant.

New Biab brewers should aim to add their grain then confirm that the pH is with in 5.2-5.6 pH. This is only the beginning but the best way to start to explore water chemistry and resultant pH and its effects on the brewing process.

John Palmer in his online book "How to brew" has a very good intro into water chemistry and is a great place to start.
GB

I am keeping it simple - mash pH is important to get good efficiency. But the pH of your water is not one of the key indicators of whether your mash pH is going to be high or low. And doing what Daddyem suggests and adjusting his water pH because it is a little low ... may well not make any difference to his mash pH nor the effectiveness of his brewing process. That - was the original thrust of the question Katzke and I were addressing. Adjusting the pH of your water. Not adjusting your water perse.

All this residual alkalinity and temporary hardness stuff - now thats confusing! ALL of it influences your brewing only inasmuch as it affects your mash pH. And all of the nomographs etc etc are only tools so you can take a guess at what minerals to add to your mash water - not to affect its ph - but to affect how it will react, with the sorts of malts you are going to use - which will affect your mash pH, so that you can get it to around 5.2.

oh - and adding Ca or Mg will not particularly affect the pH of the water... those ions act to reduce ph in the mash because of reactions they have with malt derived chemicals. Phytases etc .. That is precisely the point I am making. Things that don't have an effect on water pH can have an effect on Mash pH and visa versa.

So - back to keeping it simple.

Regardless of all the above - I maintain that mash pH itself is not all so very important as it is painted to be. The main thing it affects is conversion efficiency. Get your mash pH a bit mucked up and you might lose a few points of efficiency... and thats about it.
Sure -- you get it way way out of whack and it starts to do all manner of things and will make an impact in virtually every following process. But thats way way out of whack, not the difference between 5.2 & 5.8

So as far as I am concerned... the appropriate advice for new brewers, including new BIAB brewers - is to ignore all the babble about pH. Pretend it doesn't matter - and you will find that it doesn't particularly. You will brew, beer will get made - and all without knowing the pH of anything, there is a fairly good chance that the beer will be just fine. If it isn't -- I bet you $20 that it had nothing to do with your mash pH. When you have your process under control, and you are making good beer and hitting your targets consistently - and you feel the need to go on a quest for improvements... then have a look at your pH.

Of course -- if you know for a fact that you live in an area with particularly hard water... then it would be a good idea to ask some local brewers for advice, or seek the advice of someone like Gryphon who knows his brewing stuff very well indeed. Apart from that - if you never ever worry about it, I bet you still manage to brew perfectly good beer.

TB

 

[katzke]

I can see where both of you are coming from but I think its confusing the issue. If you dont know the pH of your brewing liquor (water ), how are you going to correct it ?

What started all this was the comment that the tap water was like pH 6 to 6.5 and they thought bringing it up to pH 7 to start would help. All of the software or manual calculations I have seen in my quest to learn about water adjustments has never said if your brewing water starts at X then do this and it will end up at Y. All the calculations have to do with brew color and what happens in the mash with the resulting mash pH after all the reactions with the grain have taken place.

Maybe we are having terminology problems.

Adjusting just the pH of the water that will be used for brewing, from the tap or tank, is bad.

Adjusting the pH of the mash is good.

So from your original water profile you don't take into account its residual alkalinity and temporary hardness ?

If you ignore this, you are just guessing at resulting mash pH.I think this is putting out the wrong message to new brewers. I believe this is the not intention , but still its confusing. You have to start with the original water profile then adjust to gain maximum benefits in process and efficiency.It does have a large effect, to start off ignoring this I believe is the wrong approach.

Yes, exactly what I said when I typed my long explanation. A brewer needs to take into account all the chemicals as well as Hardness and Alkalinity. You can not get these numbers from the pH alone. So the pH of the water, one is going to add grain to, has little effect on the pH of the mash.

Please keep it simple for every body.Water pH is very important and should not be made insignificant.

No it is not. If that were the case we would all brew with pH 7 distilled water. The pH of the water one is going to brew with has little effect on the pH of the mash. I think you will find that Palmer says so also. It is the reaction of all the important brewing chemicals in the water that will predict the resulting pH of the mash and not the starting pH of the water one will use to brew with.

It is hard to keep water simple because, while not rocket science, it is not simple.