Yankee Biab

[PistolPatch]

I can't believe this!

I have very little knowledge of water chemistry and yet 50% of what you guys write (not you GryphonBrewing) I know is just plain wrong or at least totally misleading.

You guys write in a style of huge authority. The posts you do, attempt to justify previous statements you have made on this forum and have no practical value apart from giving the appearance that you are very scientific and knowledgeable.

You guys even get real basics wrong, time and time again but always have a come-back. (Fixed one of those by phone to a brewer last night but it distresses me as to how many more there are out there.)

Tonight for me is the final straw. There's one of you I have even supported over and over because of the authoritative style in which you write. But I now finally know that I have been supporting someone who knows something about a lot of things but nothing substantial or useful about anything. You are the same person that doesn't even know the difference between full-volume and no-sparge brewing and, if you want to challenge me on this, go ahead as I still have your email correspondence.

Daddymen, GryphonBrewing, I'm sure would love to answer your question correctly (and is also highly technically qualified to do so). Send him a PM as he hardly bothers here anymore for reasons that should now be blatantly obvious

My goodness!
PP

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Perhaps (well, almost certainly) I at least am not communicating what I intend to say well - in the interest of clarity I will use someone else's words.

From How to Brew chapter 15 "Understanding mash pH"

Water pH
You would think that the pH of the water is important but actually it is not. It is the pH of the mash that is important, and that number is dependent on all of the ions we have been discussing. In fact, the ion concentrations are not relevant by themselves and it is not until the water is combined with a specific grain bill that the overall pH is determined, and it is that pH which affects the activity of the mash enzymes and the propensity for the extraction of astringent tannins from the grain husks.

Many brewers have made the mistake of trying to change the pH of their water with salts or acids to bring it to the mash pH range before adding the malts. You can do it that way if you have enough experience with a particular recipe to know what the mash pH will turn out to be; but it is like putting the cart before the horse. It is better to start the mash, check the pH with test paper and then make any additions you feel are necessary to bring the pH to the proper range. Most of the time adjustment won't be needed.

Thats what I meant to say..

Oh except for the bits where I said that mash pH was less of an issue than it sometimes seems it is - that bit is all me and I stick by it.

TB

 

[katzke]

I can't believe this!

I have very little knowledge of water chemistry and yet 50% of what you guys write (not you GryphonBrewing) I know is just plain wrong or at least totally misleading.

My goodness!
PP

Sounds like before you say anything about what we say about the pH of the water one intends to brew with you need to do some learning on the subject.

Even your expert, GryphonBrewing is saying the same thing that the pH of the water you are going to brew with is not important as compared to the important brewing chemicals as well as the Hardness and the Alkalinity.

So from your original water profile you don't take into account its residual alkalinity and temporary hardness ?

If you ignore this, you are just guessing at resulting mash pH. I think this is putting out the wrong message to new brewers. I believe this is the not intention , but still its confusing. You have to start with the original water profile then adjust to gain maximum benefits in process and efficiency. It does have a large effect, to start off ignoring this I believe is the wrong approach.

Never mentions the pH of the intended brewing water but does mention the water profile as well as other things you will never know about with just the pH of the water from the tap.

I can post links to other experts that say the same thing about the pH of the water one is going to brew with. But they will just back us up.

 

[PistolPatch]

I was just having a re-read here and my last post was a bit out of line and a bit rude too so I'm sorry about that. Knowing me, I can't promise it won't happen again. I didn't read thoroughly enough - too busy with beer

I have been a bit put off though recently in other threads by mountains being made out of molehills. Something very simple can very quickly turn good solid advice into a mass of minutiae, being talked down to from a height or just argument usually at cross purposes. And sometimes there is actually some incorrect advice thrown about as well though not to the extent I implied above. All pretty confusing for the reader.

I'm not very good at handling this and find it wearing. One day I might learn not to be a part of it though. A good lesson to learn for me.

This last thing here could have been avoided with simple clear advice initially i.e. add your grain first then adjust pH.

Hope poor old daddymen has an idea of what to try next.

 

[katzke]

I was just having a re-read here and my last post was a bit out of line and a bit rude too so I'm sorry about that. Knowing me, I can't promise it won't happen again. I didn't read thoroughly enough - too busy with beer

Hope poor old daddymen has an idea of what to try next.

I thought that might have been part of it.

Also a confusion of words or terms. This is one of my hot buttons, when people say things using the wrong terms or miss using them.

I find sometimes when things get heated it is best to let a reply set for a while and re-read it to make sure it says what you want. I have even deleted the entire thing finding it was not worth hitting post.

Now that it seems to be done I can say the short answer was not the best on my part.

 

[daddymem]

Hope poor old daddymen has an idea of what to try next.

I've gone through Palmer's stuff to find my answer. The correct answer should have been, yes, with your water report you can use the alkalinity, Ca, and Mg and his nomograph to estimate mash pH (base malt only). My water puts me in the very light SRM beers. I expected that answer, since my pH is low to start and low in minerals, I thought it would probably be low mash pH. I can now adjust using that nomograph.

After having read more, it may be the high manganese in my water that is the biggest culprit. Follow me here, looking at off flavors in milk:

"Oxidized
Cardboardy, metallic, • Exposure to “white metal”* or rusty surfaces on milk • Use only high quality stainless steel, glass, plastic or
tallowy, puckery-mouth handling equipment. This includes copper tubing from hot rubber for all milk contact surfaces.
feel water heater, “white metal” elbows or fittings in milk lines • Water treatment/softening may be necessary.
or cleaning lines and/or rust in the wash-up sink. • Use iodophor sanitizers preferably.
• Copper, iron or manganese in water supply. • Protect milk from exposure to sunlight or fluorescent
• Excessive use of chlorine sanitizers. lighting, cover glass pipelines.
• Exposure of milk to sunlight or fluorescent lighting."

If you correlate milk off flavors with beer, then the above makes sense.

In my lighter flavored beers I get a faint off flavor, bandaid, metallic, cardboard, so faint all those could describe it. Most people can't taste it, but I do. It's an irritating flavor because it is there but so weak it is hard to put a finger on it. Altbier, EPA, Irish Red, have the flavor, Irish stout, dry stout, strong blonde don't. I think the stronger flavored beers cover it. Looks like aeration or filtration in greensand will remove it. We have treatment planned in the near future (once I get a job again). For now, I may give aeration a shot, an aquarium pump in a bucket of water day before brew day may do it.

 

[katzke]

pH would make sense. My brews at home are with my well water which has low pH for drinking water 6-6.5 from different labs. I've often wondered if I should be making an adjustment to at least bring it to normal drinking water standards. For potable water, the pH is mostly a problem for mechanicals, water heater and pipes, etc. But for beer, it has to have some effect. I find water adjustments for specific recipes, I'm more interested in should I get something to raise the starting pH for all my brews.

I've gone through Palmer's stuff to find my answer. The correct answer should have been, yes, with your water report you can use the alkalinity, Ca, and Mg and his nomograph to estimate mash pH (base malt only). My water puts me in the very light SRM beers. I expected that answer, since my pH is low to start and low in minerals, I thought it would probably be low mash pH. I can now adjust using that nomograph.

After having read more, it may be the high manganese in my water that is the biggest culprit. Follow me here, looking at off flavors in milk:

"Oxidized
Cardboardy, metallic, Exposure to white metal* or rusty surfaces on milk Use only high quality stainless steel, glass, plastic or
tallowy, puckery-mouth handling equipment. This includes copper tubing from hot rubber for all milk contact surfaces.
feel water heater, white metal elbows or fittings in milk lines Water treatment/softening may be necessary.
or cleaning lines and/or rust in the wash-up sink. Use iodophor sanitizers preferably.
Copper, iron or manganese in water supply. Protect milk from exposure to sunlight or fluorescent
Excessive use of chlorine sanitizers. lighting, cover glass pipelines.
Exposure of milk to sunlight or fluorescent lighting."

If you correlate milk off flavors with beer, then the above makes sense.

In my lighter flavored beers I get a faint off flavor, bandaid, metallic, cardboard, so faint all those could describe it. Most people can't taste it, but I do. It's an irritating flavor because it is there but so weak it is hard to put a finger on it. Altbier, EPA, Irish Red, have the flavor, Irish stout, dry stout, strong blonde don't. I think the stronger flavored beers cover it. Looks like aeration or filtration in greensand will remove it. We have treatment planned in the near future (once I get a job again). For now, I may give aeration a shot, an aquarium pump in a bucket of water day before brew day may do it.

Now I am confused, we need to remember that people will not read everything on a forum.

I read your original question as should you adjust the pH of your tap water to bring it up to normal ranges for tap water before you brew. The answer is still no. If you make any adjustments to your water to influence the pH of the mash you will never know what the pH of the water is unless you test the water after making those adjustments. By using Palmers graph or spreadsheet or any of the other software or even doing the calculations by hand you will never get a resulting water pH. You will get an idea of what the pH of the mash will be after the time it takes for all the additions to react with the grain in the mash. Yes you could calculate what the pH of the treated water would be but it is not important as you are not after that at all. What you are after is what the pH of the mash will be after the grain is added and the reactions have taken place. In one of my explanations I gave the example of the pH of distilled water is 7. It has no minerals in it so the mash would be way out of range. So the pH of the water one intends to brew with is not the goal is it? The goal is what the pH of the mash will be and the only way to know that is to know what the levels of the chemicals important to brewing are in your brewing water and the desired color of the beer. And then it is a target and not an absolute number as assumptions are made about the grain. It will be close and so far I have not had to make any other adjustments.

As to trying to diagnose off flavors by comparing them to milk, beer is beer and milk is milk. Some things do cross over but I would not put much to it unless you know for sure. The flavor of DMS is one that will cross that I know of.

So if you are asking me if you should adjust the pH of you tap water then the answer is still no. IF you are asking if you should make adjustments to your water to control what happens in the mash then the answer is maybe. Look at the chemicals in your water that are important to the mash and adjust them based on the color of beer you will brew. There are a few different tools that all do the same thing. Palmers spreadsheet for excel is one of the ones I use to check my final numbers. I use Brewater to figure out what I want to add for a starting point. As to what the starting point should be there are a few different ideas. I read through Brewing Classic Styles and with some other tips I have some starting profiles I am working with. I do not have enough experience with all of them so can not say they are correct. I can say that the historical water profiles that have been published and spread around the Internet are not correct from what I have read on the subject. The common reason given for them as not correct is that the water samples were not of the actual brewing water but water outside the brewery. It has been said that some of the breweries do not use the water from the source that was tested. So one of the preferred methods of profiling water is to get the Calcium and the flavor additions correct for the color of the beer and leave the odd historical profiles alone.

This is just touching on the subject of water treatment. See why I tried to give a short answer even though it did confuse most people.

As to your Manganese level I could find no info on what off flavors you could get. The recommended levels are very low but just what that is I am not sure. Are you sure it is Manganese and not Magnesium that is in your water? If you do have high metals then you need to filter with the correct filter or dilute with distilled water and then adjust the result. Again the programs I use will help you with how much distilled water to use. The cure may be worse then the problem if you lose other trace chemicals needed for the mash or yeast. See not an easy subject to deal with is it?

 

[daddymem]

Positive it is manganese.

I still think it can be made more difficult than it has to be. If your starting water is low pH and minerals, barring anything crazy in your mash, you will probably get a low pH mash. If you know you need a higher pH for a darker beer, you should be able to use those nomographs and predict your mash pH and predict the adjustments needed to raise the pH. Sure you can use pH strips and some calculations and dial the mash in absolutely, but this is homebrewing not commercial brewing, I'm just talking about knowing you are on one end or the other of the spectrum and you want to bring yourself closer to a target. I just want to know if you could just say, given the water profile below, "I'm brewing a dark brew, I should toss in some bicarbonate." or "I'm brewing an amber, a little bicarbonate should do." or "I'm doing a pale ale, so I am good to go as is." Maybe someday advanced pH testing, but for now, just an improvement for a hobby is where I am at.

Calcium 2.0 mg/l
Magnesium 1.1 mg/l
Bicarbonate 3.42 (calculated)
Sulfate 4.1 mg/l
Chloride 8.4 mg/l
Hardness 9.5 mg/l
pH 6
Manganese 2.56 mg/l
Alkalinity 11 mg/l
Sodium 6.5 mg/l

The warning I got was the pH was low and should be adjusted and that my Manganese was high and could cause staining and off flavors in my water at that level.

 

[PistolPatch]

katzke: Thanks mate!

daddymen: Those mineral figures are very low. Wow! I'm just having a guess here but with those sort of off-flavours, I am wondering if your yeast is getting enough nutrient??? Also, a roll of pH paper is cheap as. Buy one, you'll love it!

 

[daddymem]

I've got some I may try next brew. I guess what prompted all this was Palmer "However, most people don't like to trust to luck or go through the trial and error of testing the mash pH with pH paper and adding salts to get the right pH. There is a way to estimate your mash pH before you start and this method is discussed in a section to follow, but first, let's look at how the grain bill affects the mash pH." And I couldn't follow if the nomograph adjustment examples were the mash estimating or not.

Hrmmm, yeast nutrient probably isn't a bad idea. I'll give that a shot if this pale ale I brewed has the same funny taste.

 

[katzke]

Positive it is manganese.

I still think it can be made more difficult than it has to be. If your starting water is low pH and minerals, barring anything crazy in your mash, you will probably get a low pH mash. If you know you need a higher pH for a darker beer, you should be able to use those nomographs and predict your mash pH and predict the adjustments needed to raise the pH. Sure you can use pH strips and some calculations and dial the mash in absolutely, but this is homebrewing not commercial brewing, I'm just talking about knowing you are on one end or the other of the spectrum and you want to bring yourself closer to a target. I just want to know if you could just say, given the water profile below, "I'm brewing a dark brew, I should toss in some bicarbonate." or "I'm brewing an amber, a little bicarbonate should do." or "I'm doing a pale ale, so I am good to go as is." Maybe someday advanced pH testing, but for now, just an improvement for a hobby is where I am at.

Calcium 2.0 mg/l
Magnesium 1.1 mg/l
Bicarbonate 3.42 (calculated)
Sulfate 4.1 mg/l
Chloride 8.4 mg/l
Hardness 9.5 mg/l
pH 6
Manganese 2.56 mg/l
Alkalinity 11 mg/l
Sodium 6.5 mg/l

The warning I got was the pH was low and should be adjusted and that my Manganese was high and could cause staining and off flavors in my water at that level.

I've got some I may try next brew. I guess what prompted all this was Palmer "However, most people don't like to trust to luck or go through the trial and error of testing the mash pH with pH paper and adding salts to get the right pH. There is a way to estimate your mash pH before you start and this method is discussed in a section to follow, but first, let's look at how the grain bill affects the mash pH." And I couldn't follow if the nomograph adjustment examples were the mash estimating or not.

Hrmmm, yeast nutrient probably isn't a bad idea. I'll give that a shot if this pale ale I brewed has the same funny taste.

Well with those numbers and if you truly think your Manganese is the problem you need to do a few things. Can not say what is best for you as shopping is different in the States.

All your numbers are low especially Magnesium. I think you have several issues going and yeast health may be one of them. I also still wonder if it is not your kettle. As I recall you are brewing in the same kettle you cook in.

I would try some adjustments that you are comfortable with and see what the mash pH is and how the batch comes out. You have not quite got the idea of how water adjustments work but I have no idea what more to say with out a long paper on brewing water. That is something I am not qualified to do, as I have not brewed all the styles yet. I can say what I am doing works for me and I just follow others sound advice as to how to do it. You can take a water profile and make adjustments to it and get the result you are after. The chart thing that Palmer has in his book works but the Excel Spreadsheet works much better and has flavor profiling in it also. I modified it to calculate for Salt additions as I use Salt to adjust the Sodium. Brewater is used because I have target profiles I want to match for flavor and it is much easier to find the additions needed. I have never found the auto function to work well for me.

Good luck with your brews.

 

[daddymem]

Thanks.

I ferment in buckets or my better bottle. My kettle is an aluminum 15 gallon pot.

 

[daddymem]

So is it Yeast energizer or nutrient I should get?
http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/act...amp;x=0&y=0

It doesn't sound like nutrient has the magnesium I'm missing, but the energizer does.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I still think it can be made more difficult than it has to be. If your starting water is low pH and minerals, barring anything crazy in your mash, you will probably get a low pH mash.

one of the reasons this question (the water one) often gets dragged into the details details realm. Your statement isn't true.

Low mineral water can often result in high mash pH - even very soft water can result in high mash pH. Ergo the above bickering.

The argument is moot now, you have looked at the Palmer stuff, know that your water could do with some adjustment to give you the mash pH you need; and can scoot ahead just fine. But Katzke made a point earlier on - water discussions get complex, because water chemistry and its effect in brewing is actually kind of complex.

Your water - is mostly beautiful brewing water. Actually higher in all the important brewing minerals than typical Melbourne water (where I brew) and probably very close to Pilsen water. Your main concern would be around having high enough Calcium levels. This is to do with pH in the mash and boil and also important for Yeast health. I can't see that you are significantly lacking in any other important areas - you will get sufficient trace amounts of magnesium from the malt.

Your Manganese. I think that your report's mg/L translates directly to ppm - palmer has some calculations for converting water reports, check there. But if it does translate directly into ppm then.....

Manganese (Mn2+)

At concentrations above 0.5 ppm it may inhibit the fermentation, but it
is required at lower levels (0.2 ppm ) when it acts as a co-factor to
yeast enzymes.

A touchy one ... I cant find references to it having a significant flavour or stability impact in beer, so (given that you have tossed in a little extra Calcium) unless you are noticing a problem with your fermentations... I wouldn't worry. If you do notice fermentation issues - you might have to cut your brewing water with Distilled/RO and then it will be even softer and more lacking... almost a blank canvass that you can build on from scratch.

A lot of brewers would love to have your water (brewing water is ideally at a slightly acidic or neutral pH - so no worries there) - with the minor possible glitch of the manganese.

I personally would just brew in it without a second thought - Light coloured beers should work especially well.

Thirsty

 

[PistolPatch]

Daddy, I think katzke has given you very good advice. (I'm such a turncoat Tom )

I was thinking a bit about this today whilst working. Whilst your water profile is not normal, there are still some other things that need to be considered and should definitely discounted first.

I would hold off your plans on doing another brew until you have a plan as to what you are going to change. Brewing again without making significant changes will almost certainly give you those same annoying flavours.

Nothing pisses you off more than a flavour you can't stand but hardly anyone else can taste. (Mine came from ball-valves I used on my fermenters - took me about a year to find it as I was positive those ball-valves were clean - see below).

Why I am saying that you need a plan before you brew again is because those off-flavours are almost certainly not just due to water. Water might be a contributing factor but not the major one given the very good description of those flavours you gave us earlier.

So, here's a start to a checklist that I reckon you should fully consider before your next brew. To improve it, you probably need to give us a good description of how you currently brew. The following is a start though and making the changes below will certainly do no harm at all.

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on.
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to.
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile.
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise pH. katzke will tell you as I have no idea - my water is the opposite to yours! Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer.
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this.
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think.)
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one.
8. Aerate your wort vigorously.

Some of the above might seem obvious but it is easy to miss the basics and following the above to the letter has resulted in at least three brewers I know solving a very long-term problem - one of them being me...

I spent ages asking about and trying to find mine. I am very good on cleaning and sterlisation but until Doogiechap explained the dead-space of ball-valves to me and how you can never completely clean them unless you pull them apart, I never even thought of the ones I was using on my fermenters and they were so cool! I was 100% certain they were perfectly sterile. Then Doogie showed me how to pull them apart. They were bloody difficult to get apart and I'll never use them again but the smell before pulling apart was totally neutral. After pulling apart, there it was!!!

So, Daddy there is a start to a checklist that maybe others can improve or even add to.

With your annoying flavours, before yo brew again, make sure you have done or have on hand everything you need to complete the checklist above.

Fingers crossed but I reckon following the above might even bring a smile to your face.

Good luck mate!
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

Took so long to write the above that I didn't see Thirsty's post. Gotta go but just had a quick glance through and saw the Pilsen comment. Daddy's water is pretty bloody close eh!

 

[daddymem]

I'm hoping my Kolsch comes out good due to the water I have.

1. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise any ball-valves you are using in your brewing starting from the kettle tap on. Only valve I have is in my bottle bucket and that gets sanitized soaking in my fermenter bucket overnight with Iodophor
2. Check any hoses you use during the brewing process. Check they are food-grade and rated to above the maximum temperature they are being exposed to. Did
3. If you are using a counter-flow chiller or a plate chiller, you need to have a very good look at whether they are actually sterile. I use and immersion chiller last 10 minutes it goes in the boil
4. You need to buy whatever it is needed to raise pH. katzke will tell you as I have no idea - my water is the opposite to yours! Have that on hand and after you add your grain to the mash and agitate it, use your pH strips and additive to get your mash to within 5.2 - 5.6 within say 5 minutes but don't be worried if it takes a lot longer. That's the part I need to figger out
5. Use yeast nutrient ten minutes before your boil ends. Use the nutrient not the energizer. Using double what they recommend probably wouldn't hurt given your profile but I should be checked on this. I have some for Apfelwein use, I'll give it a shot for my beer next time
6. If you are using liquid yeast, how are you using it? (We need more info here I think.) I've used dry yeast and liquid yeast. Most of the lighter beers use dry yeast, Nottingham I think all that taste ones were. When I do liquid, I use a starter
7. Completely pull apart, clean and sterilise all of your fermenter and "break" the tap if you have one. I did that with long soaks with Oxyclean followed by Iodophor soaks
8. Aerate your wort vigorously. I shake the crap outta my bucket fermenter

You missed temperature. I use a water bath and ice packs if needed to keep fermentation temps down in the low 60s F.

My brew procedures (did for my pale ale which was pretty typical)
Night before I mix up 3 gallons of Iodophor sanitizer solution in my fermentation bucket. Airlock goes in.
Brew day I dump most of the Iodophor into a rubbermaid tub and bring outside, things like spoons, thermometer and hydrometer, hop bag go into the tub.
Water into the kettle, grain bag secured, all set on turkey fryer.
Thermometer in and water brought to temp
Grain emptied into kettle, stirred and temp checked and adjusted if needed.
Lid on kettle, kettle wrapped in comforter.
Temp checked after stirring around 15 mins, 30 mins, 45 mins, 60 mins, 75 mins. Actual times judged by temperature drop based on outside weather.
Grain bag up and twisted to wring out most liquid.
Grain bag put into bucket with colander upside down in it.
I grab a sample for hydrometer reading, let that cool and take the reading sometime during the boil usually.
Wort brought to boil, at hotbreak timing started, first hops in
Hop schedule followed, Irish moss in at 10, immersion chiller in at 10. I use a hop sock usually, a large paint strainer bag allowing good movement through the wort.
I use a plate or pot lid to squeeze out wort from the grains, the wort is put back into the kettle.
At flame out I turn the water on to the immersion chiller and usually am down to mid 70s in 10 minutes or so. I grab a sample for hydrometer reading.
I swish the remaining Iodophor around in the fermenter which has had a cover on it the whole time, then dump that out.
I dump the kettle into the fermenter, pitch the yeast, put the cover on and begin rocking it for aeration.
Fermenter goes into water bath with ice packs in it for fermentation in the low to mid 60s.
Most beers stay in my primary for three weeks, come up the night before bottling to sit on the counter.
I mix up a gallon of Iodophor and soak my racking hose and bottle wand in the bottling bucket with spigot attached.
I fill my dishwasher with my bottles and run it on pots and pans, heavy scrub, high water temperature with Oxyclean in it. My bottles are rinsed after opening and placed on a bottle tree so they are very clean.
I transfer the Iodophor into another bucket through the spigot to sanitize that. My racking cane and wine thief go in there too along with my capper.
I make my bottling mixture by boiling water and adding priming sugar or DME then dump that into my bottling bucket.
I take a sample with my wine thief for a hydrometer reading.
I assemple my autosiphon and run the Iodophor solution through it then use it to transfer into the bottling bucket.
Bottling bucket goes on counter over the dishwasher.
When done, I use my vinator for a couple squirts into each bottle as I put them on my tree.
My caps go into the vinator.
I take a bottle off the tree, squirt it with the vinator, hold upside down over the dishwasher lid then fill with my bottle wand.
Meanwhile my other hand has a bottle squirted and drip drying over the lid ready for filling.
When full I put the bottle on the floor and place a cap over it.
When done, I finally cap each on, place them in my cases and push them into the corner of the kitchen for 3 weeks, it is usually in the 70s and I haven't had a problem with carbonation yet.
Some beers get cellared, some get put upstairs in my bedroom and some go straight to fridge for drinking.


My big things for brewing are sanitization, healthy yeast (starters, aeration), and temperatures. I just need to refine a few more things and I think water may be one of them. If my better bottle or glass carboy isn't in use, I'll use them for fermentation. Some beers get a secondary. Some beers only get two weeks in primary. I guess it is hard to say there are hard rules as I don't have dozens of brews under my belt yet so most of these "rules" have been for a few batches. The more I think about it, the more the manganese or yeast nutrient make the most sense. A couple of the worst off flavor ones were kits (extract at that) and I hadn't noticed until after that the yeast was old. And as I said, the lighter flavored beers have the flavor. I could see a stout hiding a faint off flavor easier than sale an English Pale ale. So that would be the manganese if you make the jump that milk off flavors of manganese equate to beer. Less than optimal yeast could also fit that too, small off flavors could be masked in a fuller beer. I'll check pH next time but I am going to try some yeast nutrient. Someday, when I find employment again, we'll get a green sand filter for our water and the manganese will be gone, and some pH adjustment so we don't have our fixtures corrode on us.

 

[PistolPatch]

Daddymen, I have run out of time tonight (huge brewing weekend this weekend) so only had a chance to scan the top bit of what you wrote. I will have a very thorough read of the remainder as soon as I get a chance.

Just on the quick scan, I'm not a fan of Nottingham and have never brewed a beer I like with it so maybe you and I have the same palate? In saying that, I have tasted a beer brewed with Nottingham that I really liked but it was late at night. The other yeast that hardly ever works for my palate is US-04. I have only tasted one beer I liked with that one and never brewed anything I liked with it. Maybe go for US-05 on your next brew?

When you have an ongoing problem like yours, your memory often plays up so consider the above seriously. i.e. Have you done a brew with a different yeast that you didn't have the problem with? Maybe, maybe not.

The valve in your bottle bucket needs to be COMPLETELY pulled apart into its individual pieces. Do this and then smell it.

This, believe it or not, could be your entire problem. If you can't pull it apart and clean it then buy a new one. If no problem, then that was your problem.

At least your checklist is getting narrowed down a bit. So, for now, do a recipe that requires SO-5 (US-56) and change or clean that bottling valve.

It is very good you have given such thorough feedback above. I'm really sorry I can't read it now but things are heading in the right direction I think.

:icon_cheers:
Pat

P.S. Until you strip or change that bottling valve, I reckon the checklist can't progress. I also reckon your problem is going to be one of those ones where you are amazed when you find it's source. It will certainly be one we all learn from.

 

[PistolPatch]

Daddymen, one other thing...

Your post before mine is one fine example of what you should post when you have a weird problem.

I'm really impressed and can't wait to read it slowly and thoroughly.

Top stuff!

Now go and pull that bottling valve apart

 

[daddymem]

Thank you for your efforts, I really appreciate it. The spigot is a plastic one. I can take the gaskets and the nut off it and that is it. I'll look for a replacement. I've used S-05 and like it, but it is on strong beers that I don't get the taste from. But it just could be the Notty. Makes sense, not everyone likes cranberries for example so I could see not liking a taste of certain yeasts.