Williamswarn Personal Brewery

[Beerisyummy]

When Ian stated that basically we are uneducated trolls, that sealed the deal for a lot of brewrrs.

I can't imagine where "trolling" comes into the equation.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Then we can copy his design and get the chinese to knock out a cheap version....

 

[Parks]

Good on you Wobbly for keeping up with this thread.

I know a lot of other guys would have taken their bat and sexy brew bling and gone home with some of the comments here.

 

[wobbly]

Thanks for the encouragement Parks.

I am signing off on this thread as I think it has run its race

For those genuinely interested in the design and operation rather than just wanting to bag the machine I will start a new thread under Gear and Equipment titled

"Williamswarn Brewery Operation and Explanation"

For those that either have a WW machine or are considering a purchase or even those pressure fermenting in a corny are I encourage you to join in the conversation and contribute to the over all knowledge of this method of brewing

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[roger mellie]

Wobbly

Cheers for this thread - and subsequent offline discussions we had about the WW and other stuff. I swear allegiance to the flag - I brought a WW on the weekend - not done my first brew yet as I needed some JG fittings to plumb it in to my brewery.

I have read this thread and seriously a lot of what has been said is the reason I lurk here more than contribute - and I admire your resolve in keeping to the facts as you see them.

Just to add some perspective - my own 2c - Ian Williams has forgotten more about brewing that most of us will know. He is also very free with his information and let me brew a fresh wort kit I did in my BM20 in one of his showroom machines. I found him completely NOT arrogant - just a brewer from the megaswill side of the tracks who has tried to make some money by making the process of making craft beer at home as simple and hassle free as he could - and I think he has absolutely nailed it. The fact that he made some comments about liquid yeast and various other stuff is his opinion - everyone is entitled to theirs. He maintains that liquid yeast is viable for 5 days - doesn't mean I won't use it - I have never had a problem with it and I know it will work in his machine. I guess the standpoint he is defending is that claims he makes about the timeframe - which is also something I don't care about - I also don't agree with his temperature profiles (yet) - the Amber Ale I made with S-04 was fermented at 23 DegC - was finished (1.048 --> 1.007) in < 2 days including 8 hours latency for the yeast to start. Of course its going to be slower if you bring that back down to (normal) 18 degC. Will it affect the flavour profile ?? - I have a whole lot of experimenting to do to find out.

The fact that he has designed his system around the relative simplicity of a K&K method is secondary to the whole argument I believe - the actual 'system' he has designed is completely flexible and probably for all but 10% of 'out there' beers (Lambics, Ultra High Gravity Beers etc...) it is an excellent way of fermenting. I won't be attempting a RIS for example.

I firmly believe that there is no better way to make a beer than to exclude Oxygen post pitching. I believe that the WW does this (and I believe that for a shitload less money you could fashion something very similar and I probably would have if I had the time - I don't).

I will happily contribute to the new thread.

Cheers

RM

WW #00358

 

[dicko]

Guys, I have moved the appropriate posts from this topic to the new topic below.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78448-williamswarn-brewery-operation-and-explanation/

And Welcome Back to the forum Roger

 

[mooncat]

I don't want get into the discussion about the merits of the WilliamsWarn as I have one and it's perfect for my needs. Having made some, in my view, excellent beers I am looking at tweaks. I have dry hopped at the beginning of ferment and used the sediment bottle to dry hop in a muslin bag after clarification. I would be interested in opinions as to the merits or otherwise of making a hop tea in a sterilised cafetiere at 80 degrees, putting that into the sediment bottle and topping with foam to limit oxygen into the brew. This may be a question that only makes sense to williamswarn users but I'm happy to listen to others views. However as a gentle soul who wouldn't think of criticising others approaches to this wonderful creative pastime I would welcome thoughts and constructive criticism

 

[Dan Pratt]

Hi Mooncat,

I have learnt that when dry hopping at the beginning of ferment the results had not been favourable, this is with a std fermentation vessel.

Im interested to know how the dry hopping at the beginning of ferment turned out, does the Co2 pressure during this time aid in creating a better hops aroma?

Also curios why the post fermentation hops would be added to the sediment botttle, how do the hops actually get through the beer if they are at the base of the vessel already?

 

[Grainer]

IF YOU DIDNT MAKE YOUR RIG IT AINT WORTH IT !!!.. there is more satisfaction out of brewing from a beat up old $20 pot and a bag.. and nailing that brew LOL

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Not for me. But we all brew for different reasons.

I see that even if the cost were significantly lower, the advantages (for me) are outweighed by the disadvantages.

But for me, the advantages of K&K brewing are outweighed the disadvantages of that method. But for others, simplicity, ease of use and less time are their aim. Whereas AGers often care more about the process behind the scenes. It's a personality and cost-benefit thing.

I'm beating myself up about spending less than a grand on a basic kegging set - yet this machine is several times that amount for half the functionality of my (currently mythical) kegging set plus the cost of my basic ghetto AG brewery. For me, that doesn't demonstrate value for money. Having said that, I'd rather spend that money on plane tickets overseas for the family - yet someone else would see that as throwing money away with nothing tangible to show for it. (not that I have that money at any rate, just for the example's sake).

To each their own, and brew and let brew (to play with Sir Paul McCartney's song a bit).

 

[angus_grant]

if you have a rig which makes beer, then it is worth it.

If people who have bought the WW brewery see the value and it suits their brewing style and personal approach to brewing, and they have the cash then congrats to them.
Other people want to bang out beer on $20 ghetto systems. Congrats to them.
Other people want to cobble together a ghetto Braumeister system, congrats to them (when they eventually get something working )

I've never used a 3V system so feel completely unqualified to pass any judgement/comment on those systems.
I've never used a WW system so feel completely unqualified to pass any judgement/comment on those systems.
etc, etc, etc...

 

[Jimbo12A]

Hi Guys,
I own a Williamswarn unit, I was the first in Australia to use the upgraded unit, with heaps of refinements, mostly hidden. I must confess I had lea-way over the rest of the users of the Williamswarn unit. I'll explain this all shortly. I do not have any afiliation with the makers of the unit.

I've been a brewer sinse Gough Witllam legalised home brewing in the early 1970's. That's almost a lifetime.
If it wasnt for this legislation from a confirmed beer drinker, who loved beer, you wouldn't be brewing today. It would still be illegal. Gough loved beer, and plenty of it, made Bob Hawke look like an amateaur.

You don't realize how hard it was to make a 1/2 decent ale in those days.
Bakers yeast couldn't quite cut it. No mattter how hard we tried to change it.
We used to culture a 1/2 bottle of Cooper's ale to get enough yeast to make a starter. Sometime times this didn't work. We got sick drinking the beer.

In 1998, I decided enough was enough, I'm too old to work, I'm too old to work in the industry, but surely I can make a decent beer..Something better than foaming drain cleaner. I enrolled in the Tafe course at Regency, the Cordon Bleue training centre of food and wines.
I will admit, it cost heaps, but the knowlege is beyond question. If you guys really want to learn how to make beer with out exception, enroll and be enlightened.

The end result was that I achieved the title of master brewer, certifications to prove this, but due to my age 75 plus, I couldn't work in the industry. I can tell you, with the Williamswarn, with my knowlege, I can make one hell of a beer. I know.

My beers have been submitted in various shows, with great results. The Kit and Kilo machine shines. This machine is not a **** from some Kiwi that somehow knew how to make beer. He was the world youngest Master Brewer on the world stage. He is my God of Brewing.

You guys think this machine is a ****, well, so far, one gold medal, on his third brew, never brewed before, and a siver medal,a backyard brewer, both from kit and kilo, in the Asian beer Festival. They were competing against multimillion dollar brewerys. They killed them! A small 23 litre brewery, at about $7000. Can you believe it.

I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.


Beer is like bread, it's meant to be drunk fresh, not two or three months stale.

 

[pcmfisher]

Hi Guys,
I own a Williamswarn unit, I was the first in Australia to use the upgraded unit, with heaps of refinements, mostly hidden. I must confess I had lea-way over the rest of the users of the Williamswarn unit. I'll explain this all shortly. I do not have any afiliation with the makers of the unit.

I've been a brewer sinse Gough Witllam legalised home brewing in the early 1970's. That's almost a lifetime.
If it wasnt for this legislation from a confirmed beer drinker, who loved beer, you wouldn't be brewing today. It would still be illegal. Gough loved beer, and plenty of it, made Bob Hawke look like an amateaur.

You don't realize how hard it was to make a 1/2 decent ale in those days.
Bakers yeast couldn't quite cut it. No mattter how hard we tried to change it.
We used to culture a 1/2 bottle of Cooper's ale to get enough yeast to make a starter. Sometime times this didn't work. We got sick drinking the beer.

In 1998, I decided enough was enough, I'm too old to work, I'm too old to work in the industry, but surely I can make a decent beer..Something better than foaming drain cleaner. I enrolled in the Tafe course at Regency, the Cordon Bleue training centre of food and wines.
I will admit, it cost heaps, but the knowlege is beyond question. If you guys really want to learn how to make beer with out exception, enroll and be enlightened.

The end result was that I achieved the title of master brewer, certifications to prove this, but due to my age 75 plus, I couldn't work in the industry. I can tell you, with the Williamswarn, with my knowlege, I can make one hell of a beer. I know.

My beers have been submitted in various shows, with great results. The Kit and Kilo machine shines. This machine is not a **** from some Kiwi that somehow knew how to make beer. He was the world youngest Master Brewer on the world stage. He is my God of Brewing.

You guys think this machine is a ****, well, so far, one gold medal, on his third brew, never brewed before, and a siver medal,a backyard brewer, both from kit and kilo, in the Asian beer Festival. They were competing against multimillion dollar brewerys. They killed them! A small 23 litre brewery, at about $7000. Can you believe it.

I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.


Beer is like bread, it's meant to be drunk fresh, not two or three months stale.

So you were 75+ in 1998?
You will be getting that letter from the Queen soon.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

What was the point of that post Jimbo? The machine is a ****. A shiny, awesome, piece of ****. I would **** all over a stainless steel pressurised temperature controlled FV every day if I had one.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

We used to culture a 1/2 bottle of Cooper's ale to get enough yeast to make a starter. Sometime times this didn't work. We got sick drinking the beer.

Beer is like bread, it's meant to be drunk fresh, not two or three months stale.

Claiming you got 'sick' from beer in the context of under-pitching yeast is really mis-guided advice to those still learning about yeast pitching rates. Obviously if you 'felt' ill from the beer it was probably more to do with the awful taste from poor techniques. It's well known that pathogens cannot live in beer.

You've obviously never drunk a european lager then if you think beer is best drunk before two or three months, nor an aged stout/porter.

 

[indica86]

You guys think this machine is a ****, well, so far, one gold medal,

I assume you own an Apple computer as well?
Sound like a bible basher with dribble like that.

 

[lukiferj]

What was the point of that post Jimbo? The machine is a ****. A shiny, awesome, piece of ****. I would **** all over a stainless steel pressurised temperature controlled FV every day if I had one.

Ha. If I was drinking beer I would have spat it out all over myself. As it is, now I'm wearing a mouthful of meat pie.

 

[pk.sax]

What was the point of that post Jimbo? The machine is a ****. A shiny, awesome, piece of ****. I would **** all over a stainless steel pressurised temperature controlled FV every day if I had one.

That is exactly it. It's a really cool gadget and capable I can tell from the description of it wrapped in the wanky mine is bigger than yours hype. But 7k!?!? wtf. I changed from using a plastic fermenter to a glass carboy because of making life easier (as in leave it in there longer without having to transfer etc). Next idea is to source a slow enough pump to pump the beer out rather than siphon. Once I get the refrigeration thing happening again I can look at running the airlock bit out to a pre-set prv (maybe... explosive krausens don't help). I've already set tt up with a bung + Thermowell that lets me measure the beer rather than the ambient temp to control the fridge/heating.

Granted none of this stuff is even half as blingy as the ww machine but 7k is a LOT to charge for something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head. I just don't get the apologists. Just let the friggin thread die. Each time someone pipes up its an advertisement, might have been ok if the maker wasn't such a knob about it.

Everyone that comes on here saying they brewed sub standard beers before they got their hands on one of these must really really brew with their eyes closed that they can't learn to do better. You know what, I can boat that a former kits n bits brewer who used to win awards for his efforts became a big fan of my beers. Didn't have a ww did I! Fairly ghetto, yet, learning a bit about the malt you are using and the effect of the hops and even more importantly the yeast to get the desired effect can get you a long way. If you visited and talked to the number of experienced home brewers around and pick their brains on how a malt works you'd bridge the gap a lot cheaper than making corona clones in a ww.

I see the ww as those mixmaster kinda thingies. With the heater integrated into the mixer, it chops, blends, purees and cooks your food for you like you were a retarded 60 year old. (No offence to bouncing lively 60 yo/s) basically - safe hospital food standards. What a life.

 

[roger mellie]

I cant disagree with you more Practical Fool. So with all due respect...

I have been making beer for ~ 20 years - more regularly since the mid 2000's. I have made some excellent beers - I have tipped some beers down the drain.

I started making beer in an esky - now I have a Braumeister - they are fricking expensive too for what they are.

The comment you make about "something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head" is bollocks. I am an engineer and I can't agree with that.

1. Full pressure fermentation - not so easy - you can get pressure vessels sure - but conical ones with lids that allow you to get into and clean?
​2. Ability to dump sediment during fermentation - haven't come across that one either
3. Built in Glycol refrigeration and heating system - jacketed conical. You could knock one of those up pretty easily right? Ferment anywhere from 1 Deg to 28 Deg C. Simple?
​4. Addition of colloidal clarification agent - agitation and ability to dump trub and clarified beer at 1 DegC - simple stuff - right?
5. There is even a spyglass at the top with an LED so you can look at your beer fermenting

All made of Stainless

In short - this is nothing like a mixmaster. Its a fermenter pure and simple - a fermenter - yep its expensive - Like the old Stella Artois advert - reassuringly expensive. No it won't make all my beers better - but yes it will exclude Oxygen during the process so my beer tastes fresher, lasts longer - the jury is out about making the beer making process faster by bypassing the need for ageing - I will hopefully prove that over time.

And if it gets people who want to get into brewing because you don't need a Esky/ Mash Tun/Mill/Kettle/Heat Source/Counter Flow Chiller/Kegging Setup/Filter/Perestalic Pump/March Pump/Fridge for fermenting/Fridge for dispensing (yep I got all of those) - is it a bad thing? Even their Kit Beers with 40gms of hops shoved in a Coffee Press thing taste clean, are clear, have flavour.

I cringed a bit when I saw some of the promo stuff - but cut the bloke some slack - his audience is the noobs - people who have probably never made a beer before.

I agree - let the thread die - but I don't see any apologists - just testimonials of people who own one of these trying to make better beer.

Cheers

RM

 

[pat_00]

I think it looks like an awesome machine, it has got me wanting to try pressurised fermentation as that seems the biggest advantage of the design (apart from the usual conical advantages).

I couldn't justify selling my car for one though

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Onwards and upwards! To the pressurized fermentation thread we go!

 

[pk.sax]

I cant disagree with you more Practical Fool. So with all due respect...

I have been making beer for ~ 20 years - more regularly since the mid 2000's. I have made some excellent beers - I have tipped some beers down the drain.

I started making beer in an esky - now I have a Braumeister - they are fricking expensive too for what they are.

The comment you make about "something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head" is bollocks. I am an engineer and I can't agree with that.

1. Full pressure fermentation - not so easy - you can get pressure vessels sure - but conical ones with lids that allow you to get into and clean?
​2. Ability to dump sediment during fermentation - haven't come across that one either
3. Built in Glycol refrigeration and heating system - jacketed conical. You could knock one of those up pretty easily right? Ferment anywhere from 1 Deg to 28 Deg C. Simple?
​4. Addition of colloidal clarification agent - agitation and ability to dump trub and clarified beer at 1 DegC - simple stuff - right?
5. There is even a spyglass at the top with an LED so you can look at your beer fermenting

All made of Stainless

In short - this is nothing like a mixmaster. Its a fermenter pure and simple - a fermenter - yep its expensive - Like the old Stella Artois advert - reassuringly expensive. No it won't make all my beers better - but yes it will exclude Oxygen during the process so my beer tastes fresher, lasts longer - the jury is out about making the beer making process faster by bypassing the need for ageing - I will hopefully prove that over time.

And if it gets people who want to get into brewing because you don't need a Esky/ Mash Tun/Mill/Kettle/Heat Source/Counter Flow Chiller/Kegging Setup/Filter/Perestalic Pump/March Pump/Fridge for fermenting/Fridge for dispensing (yep I got all of those) - is it a bad thing? Even their Kit Beers with 40gms of hops shoved in a Coffee Press thing taste clean, are clear, have flavour.

I cringed a bit when I saw some of the promo stuff - but cut the bloke some slack - his audience is the noobs - people who have probably never made a beer before.

I agree - let the thread die - but I don't see any apologists - just testimonials of people who own one of these trying to make better beer.

Cheers

RM

I can agree with what you said there. The intended market is really the noobs. One of the things about trying to do your own engineering without a brief is that most things will end up over engineered like most home brewers realise. Some of the things in this machine are so, but they do make it idiot proof. Do brewers that like the process as much as the product need such over simplified idiot proof machines? Think that answer is plain enough. Again, I thought when I first saw the BM come up that why the hell would I want one. But after 2 years and some patches of not brewing at all because of a lack of time I've thought a few times if I should just get one! Courses for horses. Well said there from you and probably the best note to close this thread on.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yes.

I think this thread needs closing.

Further posts from either side of the camp will do nothing more than cause more conflict.

 

[sp0rk]

I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.

My second beer (kit and bits) was crystal clear, tasted amazing and won a first place when entered in my first comp
My first allgrain again was crystal clear, tasted great and again won first place when I entered it in a comp
I do not filter, most of the time I don't use finings and I gladwrap my fermenters (BIAB No chill)
When I enter comps I force carb and then bottle using a CPBF, time from grain to comp ready is usually 14 days
Best not to assume

 

[MastersBrewery]

I cant disagree with you more Practical Fool. So with all due respect...

I have been making beer for ~ 20 years - more regularly since the mid 2000's. I have made some excellent beers - I have tipped some beers down the drain.

I started making beer in an esky - now I have a Braumeister - they are fricking expensive too for what they are.

The comment you make about "something that can be done very easily by anyone using their head" is bollocks. I am an engineer and I can't agree with that.

1. Full pressure fermentation - not so easy - you can get pressure vessels sure - but conical ones with lids that allow you to get into and clean?
​2. Ability to dump sediment during fermentation - haven't come across that one either
3. Built in Glycol refrigeration and heating system - jacketed conical. You could knock one of those up pretty easily right? Ferment anywhere from 1 Deg to 28 Deg C. Simple?
​4. Addition of colloidal clarification agent - agitation and ability to dump trub and clarified beer at 1 DegC - simple stuff - right?
5. There is even a spyglass at the top with an LED so you can look at your beer fermenting

All made of Stainless

In short - this is nothing like a mixmaster. Its a fermenter pure and simple - a fermenter - yep its expensive - Like the old Stella Artois advert - reassuringly expensive. No it won't make all my beers better - but yes it will exclude Oxygen during the process so my beer tastes fresher, lasts longer - the jury is out about making the beer making process faster by bypassing the need for ageing - I will hopefully prove that over time.

And if it gets people who want to get into brewing because you don't need a Esky/ Mash Tun/Mill/Kettle/Heat Source/Counter Flow Chiller/Kegging Setup/Filter/Perestalic Pump/March Pump/Fridge for fermenting/Fridge for dispensing (yep I got all of those) - is it a bad thing? Even their Kit Beers with 40gms of hops shoved in a Coffee Press thing taste clean, are clear, have flavour.

I cringed a bit when I saw some of the promo stuff - but cut the bloke some slack - his audience is the noobs - people who have probably never made a beer before.

I agree - let the thread die - but I don't see any apologists - just testimonials of people who own one of these trying to make better beer.

Cheers

RM

1 Brewhemoth and Glacier Tanks, most use a CIP ball spray to clean any way
2 More Beer
3 jacketeing fermenters was done due to their size and wanting specific temps for each vessel, fridge with brewpi would be just as accurate
4 Adding clarifying agent isn't rocket science event to a pressurised vessel, dumping trub see 2, agitation ahh ya got me but I don't think that would sway me to spend an extra $4000
5 Punkin
6 done and 3-4 times the volume

MB

 

[zappa]

I've quite enjoyed this thread. It has reminded me of those hipsters that bought Macintosh before Apple was cool, and paid 4 times the amount for the privilege. It's reminded me a little of Amway salesmen too. There's plenty of tongue in cheek here guys - don't take it too seriously!

Anyway, it's really got me thinking about fermenting under pressure and how I may go about it on the cheap. For that, I must thank Wobbly and friends. I'm half expecting someone to start a DIY WW project anytime now.

Cheers & beers

 

[Camo6]

I heard a rumour the WilliamsWarnWobblemiser is already under development.

 

[manticle]

I brew all grain, No Chill, and I can still win awards for shows, although I don't compete much, as I think I have an unfair advantage, crystal clear beer, drinkable, fully carbonated at seven days, whereas you guys spend months getting there.Nine time times out of ten you can't enter, it's too cloudy and not enough carbonation for the judges.

I've stayed out of the to-ing and fro-ing because I see it as pointless but this is just utter rubbish. Williamswarn may give clear beer in 4-7 days and it may be quicker than other equipment but what beer needs months to get clear and carbonated?

Many people brew, ferment, filter and keg beers which are clear, taste great and are carbonated inside a week. Whether they are as good as WW, I'm not willing to state as I've never tried beer from one but to intimate that brewing, fermenting and carbonating by all other methods besides yours takes months doesn't do you any favours. You either don't understand the process (which presumably you do given your qualifications) or you're using hyperbole.

Most beers for me would probably have a 2 week turnaround from pitching to keg, which while twice as long as yours, is a far cry from the trimester you seem to have allocated to it. This is beer/style dependent - not sure if you're pushing out Belgian dark Strongs with yours but that kind of beer will get plenty more time before I want to touch it and probably get bottled rather than kegged.

As for not being able to enter comps because it's cloudy and flat - where the hell did you pull that from?

Speak up for the machine from personal experience by all means but don't make **** up. You're just adding to the us/them mentality that doesn't need to exist.

 

[pcmfisher]

Yes, I was unaware that the beer judges take into account how quickly a beer was produced.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Having a WilliamsWank will not automaticaly make you a brewing god, or automatically make you an expert brewer. This ******** that only a WW will give award wining beer in a week is just that. I am sure many brewers who filter and keg in the same amount of time would have something to say about it. Just because you forked out $7k for a machine does not give you the right to start telling all and sundry that they cant brew as well as you can. Bit like buying a Ferrari then telling everyone else they dont know how to drive.