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Elz said:
It definitely is not for everyone and some will never be converted
Even less now after his rather illuminating statements.

He certainly needs to learn marketing 101. Bit like an F1 driver saying that the winner at Bathurst cant drive a car.
 
Parks said:
There are hundreds, if not thousands of brewers on here who make great tasting beer. When I was young I used to make Coopers tins which I said tasted great.

Elz, or Wobbly - can someone make a DrSmurto's Golden Ale so we can have a taste off!
Nope, not yet anyway. Did some brewing in my 20's and now in my 40's have brewed 7 WW batches. Started with standard K&K WW, moved to some coopers K&K, try some K&K from LHBS and experimented with some dry hopping. Slowly progressing to extract and will probably move to all grain once I have mastered the basics; hopefully after 15-20 brews. Want to try some stouts in winter and then hope to make a half decent DrSmurto's Golden Ale. No rush but I do aspire to utilize/pushWW to the limits.
 
Elz said:
No rush but I do aspire to utilize/pushWW to the limits.
Any news yet on what those limits are?

-Have you tried a wheat beer with a runaway krausen? Does this issue vanish under pressure or will it clog up the spunding valve?

-Could you throw a power meter on the unit while the unit is holding temp and let people now how efficiently it runs?

-Just how well does the cooling unit function under load? Can it cold crash a lager for a week in a hot garage?

-Is the unit better at driving an F1 car or a v8 supercar? Scratch that!

-If I buy one will my dad be bigger than your dad? Scratch that too.

I really think these sort of things are the important questions that need answering. It's obvious to most people that any sound vessel ,with a little bit of temperature control, can be used to ferment out a wort.

Pushing the limits means that you have to exceed them at some point. When you guys start to encounter problems with the setup, I think that will be the information that becomes most useful.

Peace out and happy brewing!
 
Details of an e-mail I got last night from a guy in SA who also owns a WW.

"I'm an all grain brewer and I've been brewing for about 40 years now, ever since Gogh Whitlam legalised home brewing, and I own a WW
The best investment I ever made.
My two daughters have said they will fight over who's going to get the unit when I'm gone
I bought the unit originally, as an engineer, I was after perfection. The WW along with my 50 litre Braumeister offered exactly what I was after. Unfortunately my Braumeister was stolen which is a long story on it's own, I've nearly saved enough for again for another 50 litre unit."

From the tone of the e-mail he obviously isn't a cashed up bogan but someone who sees value in quality products as I do.

When I have completed a few brews to my satisfaction and after the festive season I will do some of the things others have asked such as power usage, and brew a Dr S Golden Ale or a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone and maybe even forward a bottle or two to a couple of the "movers and shakers" that have been making constructive comments for then to evaluate and comment on

Wobbly
 
The thing is not bad value when you take into account that a spatula costs $20.86 in New Zealand!

http://www.williamswarn.com/Shop/Brewing-Accessories/Stirring-Spoon

And this guy has the gall to call home brewers dummies!

I can understand him getting his back up, most home brew sites seem to include a thread where the consensus is this thing is an expensive toy and does not consitute "real" brewing (when used with the extract kits as designed). I think Ian would be better served politely acknowledging that his is but one path to an excellent, quality controlled fermented beverage, and that existing all grain brewers/DIYers are not really his target market, and are not inferior for rejecting his toy as the one true path to brewing excellence.

Every party at my house, the one token slab of bought beer (usually an above average mainstream german lager) sits untouched whilst my kegs take a smashing. So there's one example of a home brew dummy beating the billion dollar breweries WITHOUT a WW. Pretty sure I'm not the only one.

I reckon this thing would make far more sense with room for 1-2 cornies on the dispense side, with direct transfer from the fermenter. Would address the largest perceived weakness of the system (downtime between having beers on tap) for what should be an incremental price increase.
 
From what I can gather, Ian comes from the megaswill end of brewing, which is all about production,production & production. Maybe if he was from micro/craft brewing end he may not be as arogant.
 
wobbly said:
Unfortunately my Braumeister was stolen which is a long story on it's own, I've nearly saved enough for again for another 50 litre unit."

Wobbly
:icon_offtopic:
I hope the prick who stole it brews a lifetime of nothing but bad beer full of infections & foul flavours!
Do they have a serial number on them? As so few come up for sale second hand it would be nice to think there's a chance he could be caught down the line if he ever tried to sell it.
No home contents insurance Wobbly?

It might be worth attaching something like this on your next one.
STUDLESS_CHAIN_001.jpg
Cheers
 
Not my Braumeister that was stolen. It appears you have miss read the post. the unit that was stolen was from the guy who sent me the e-mail and in any event I only have the 20 litre size which is big enough for me.

And I would think that the winner of Bathurst's car would have cost about the same as the F1 unit and that the driver would not be you average street hoon!!!

Wobbly
 
wobbly said:
Now I am defending WW as I consider it important that correct and factual information is provided

A search of the WW site dose not indicate that the clarification agent is any "Intellectual Property" and states that the product is a common product used in brewers world wide

Wobbly
Wobbly I wasn't having a crack at the system me old son :) I'd have a row of them if they were priced a little more my pocket friendly, the quote I was referring to was stated in Post #150 of this topic

Quote
Your site mentions a “special clarification agent”. What is this product and does it need to be purchased exclusively from you, or can it be bought from your local homebrew store?

This is one of our few secrets. Took me a while to figure this part of the process out so it’s our IP for the moment.
 
Rehabs ---- No worries mate didn't take it as a crack or cheap shot. My mission is to just make sure that the correct and up to date current information is put out there

The quote/reference was made by BUM and was from an interview dated 23 January 2012 just after WW had released their Gen1 appliance and now it is common knowledge what the product is as it is detailed on the bottle whilst I admit the actual product details are is not specifically stated on the web site under accessories

Wobbly
 
Looking forward to hearing the results of using this. It looks like a great piece of kit and adds a serious level of control to the fermentation process which is tricky even with temperature control etc. the up front cost is a factor but you wouldn't have to be brewing for all that long to be ahead over buying half decent beer on a regular basis!

For what it's worth I think commercial breweries have a different focus from craft breweries or home brewers. For any commercial venture you need to be able to replicate a product exactly over and over again. With the big majors I would guess that this means doing this as economically as possible which means limiting the number of ingredients an looking for further efficiency. I think it was VB a while back that dropped their ABV by a few tenths a of a percent which would have saved them a truckload in excise over time. It wasn't well received and they reverted to their original recipe.

Craft breweries also need replicability but are aiming for a niche market so are prepared to have greater variety and drop more coin on ingredients to differentiate their product.

Home brewing has less focus on replicability and more on experimentation and exploration on the breadth and depth of beer styles. Home brewers might have a couple of go to recipes but also try a lot of different styles and recipes within styles. Some enjoy brewing for competitions and in style, others care more about whether or not they enjoy the finished product.

For those who want replicability in their home brew things like this and the braumeister are fantastic in the level of control they add to the home brew process.

Enjoy mate, I hope your beers are tasty and this adds to your enjoyment of a wonderful hobby!
 
Good luck with it Wobbly.

This guy isn't arrogant, his sticking up for his baby after the internet is bullying it to pieces.

And giving someone **** about only be a mega-swill brewer and not a craft brewer is what makes some of you sound like 'home brewing dummies', you rather be broke and making good home brew craft beer, or being employed to make mega-swill and feeding your family (while you would probably be making good beer at home anyway)? It's a job people, and a place to do your training.

I'll never own the thing, and would rather spend my money on something else, but don't mean I think it's an absolute exy piece of crap.
 
shaunous said:
you rather be broke and making good home brew craft beer, or being employed to make mega-swill and feeding your family .
Given the choice, is rather pay the bills elsewhere and make my own beer on my own terms. Not to say you can't do that on a WW, but the creators CV suggests a less than creative portfolio...
 
The guy comes across as an arrogant fool. There is no way I'd buy his machine based purely on his attitude.
Apparently I know nothing and he knows it all.
Top looking bit of kit made and marketed by a ****** with no idea and no social skills. Perhaps he suffers from some form of Autism.
 
I hope you don't limit all your purchasing choices to the personality of the owner of the company. I certainly wouldn't own a mac if that was the case.
 
djar007 said:
I hope you don't limit all your purchasing choices to the personality of the owner of the company. I certainly wouldn't own a mac if that was the case.
I tend to agree, but it doesn't help... I don't think Steve Jobs got someone else to post in "macs suck" calling the windows fans stupid.
 
I have resisted the urge to respond in kind to the negative posts and rather post a few more of what I see as positives of this system

Making good craft beer is a lot more scientific than a lot here give credit for and is certainly not standing around some sort of boiling cauldron mumbling weird phrases and spells. You need a lot of very specific knowledge of the process, ingredients and how to use them to best effect. Yes a bit mother hood and apple pie I know but some on this site need to be reminded of that from time to time. Use very basic budget cans of goo or grains and hop oils and ferment at whatever the ambient temperature on any given day is and you will reap the your reward by producing basically pretty awful alcohol. The other end of the scale is to use quality grains, the very best and freshest hops and modern well engineered equipment that will enable you to consistently produce high quality wort and then ferment that wort with quality fresh yeast in a well engineered controlled environment and you will produce the quality of beer you want and will enjoy.

The Braumeister revolution got a lot of brewers away from the "witch craft" model and enabled, in my view, quality wort to be brewed consistently with a minimum of effort.

The Williams Warn, again in my view, is the next step along the continuum of excellence as it replaces a whole range of DIY systems that have been developed by guys trying to replicate/emulate what the quality craft breweries achieve. Go into any of the better craft breweries and you will not see pots of boiling wort attended by "old hags" mumbling secret spells or multitudes of devices trying to replicate conical fermenters, pressure fermentation, natural carbonation and maturation of their beers.

The guy from SA I referenced above who also owns a WW stared out with a 3V Bilchman set up, then went BIAB, and finally to a Braumeister and now compliments that with a WW and comments that he has never made better beer as easily. He lives near McLaren Vale and is very friendly with the owner of the local medium sized Craft Brewery and the owner comments that the BM/WW set up makes better beer than he does at the craft brewery and I guess to some extent there is a bit of pissing in the pocket going on as well

Making better beer would have a fair bit to do with the quality of inputs as well as a controlled and repeatable process and if no expense is your criteria and you have unlimited resources at your disposal then you will make better beer as indicated by this quote by the owner of Bacchus Brewery taken from an interview published in a recent James Squires e-mail mail out.

We have an array of ingredients that probably every brewery would be jealous of- we've got a selection of well over 100 different grains, 100 different yeasts, 100 different hops, so we never have to think about what we're using. We can brew anything we want with no regard really to cost or how we operate - we make the best beer we can from the ingredients we have and then charge accordingly for the finished beer. The beauty of our situation is that it allows us to experiment on an unparalleled scale.

The full article can be vied here www.jamessquires.com.au/beer/craft-beer-tasting/bacchus-brewing

Much has been said about the cost of these units and individuals have used their resourcefulness to replicate the Braumeister but along the way there have been quite a number of issues with putting together the electronics, sealing the malt pipe and pump selection to mention a few. Not that I want to take anything away from these guys efforts but from where I sit it seems to be as much about the DIY challenge as it is about trying to produce better beer.

In my youth guys spent most if not all of their money on trying to make the FJ Holden go faster by rebuilding the engine with larger valves, polishing cylinder head ports, planed heads, fitting turbo chargers, race cams and water injection systems. Now those rev heads that want to go fast just go out and buy the latest V8 Holden of 'Fraud" because it's not a continual money pit, does the job better than anything their predecessors DIY jobs did and is not subject to continual break downs.

With all the references to the high cost of these units (Braumeisters and WilliamsWarn) and comments like "I would never purchase one in a fit at those costs" I often wonder how much they invested in the "significant other half" when she said "put a ring on it" both for the ring and the subsequent one day event that followed. I bet a lot didn't get much if any change out of $30 - $40K and didn't think anything of it. Hey if it floated their boat well good on them and go for it.

What's the connection I hear you saying probably nothing it's just another example of how some of us guys spend our money for what ever it is that turns us on at the time

Wobbly
 
Are you trying to say that many AG brewers dont know the value of quality ingreadients and how to use them. Many brewers use exactly the same malts,hops & yeasts and technique as Bachus.

Your analogy of brewers waving a wand and muttering wierd sayings is not doing you any favours. Simply because its ********.

The WW maybe the next step, and the principal is something that has a lot of merit due to the fact it is a proven method in commercial production. And I have no doubt it is prob going to be the next step in our passion for brewing great beers.

Dont forget that there are a lot of brewers out there that are highly qualified in areas if microbiology,chemical engineering, food science,etc.
 
I haven't been one of the naysayers wobbly but a lot of your rant didn't make a lot of sense. Drawing a very long bow with the wedding comparison for a start.

Still interested in the answer to my question about future designs incorporating wort production if you can get around to it.

Simple answer to the cost criticisms is based on 3 things.

1. Do I want it?
2. Can I afford it?
3. Is it worth it?

If your answer (not anyone else's answer) is yes then great. Someone else might answer no - that doesn't need to trouble you though.
 
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