Williamswarn Personal Brewery

[Beerisyummy]

I tend to agree, but it doesn't help... I don't think Steve Jobs got someone else to post in "macs suck" calling the windows fans stupid.

I normally hate these sort of analogies about cars and computers, but this one really does suit this situation.

The Apple marketing department have succeeded in getting their customers to do this dirty work for them. They love telling you how much better their purchase is, even though most of them don't know what makes it better. Oh, I forgot. They do look flash.

Without any ill feelings towards the OP, his comments are in much the same vain.

I have resisted the urge to respond in kind to the negative posts and rather post a few more of what I see as positives of this system.....

The Williams Warn, again in my view, is the next step along the continuum of excellence as it replaces a whole range of DIY systems that have been developed by guys trying to replicate/emulate what the quality craft breweries achieve. Go into any of the better craft breweries and you will not see pots of boiling wort attended by "old hags" mumbling secret spells or multitudes of devices trying to replicate conical fermenters, pressure fermentation, natural carbonation and maturation of their beers.

The guy from SA I referenced above who also owns a WW stared out with a 3V Bilchman set up, then went BIAB, and finally to a Braumeister and now compliments that with a WW and comments that he has never made better beer as easily. He lives near McLaren Vale and is very friendly with the owner of the local medium sized Craft Brewery and the owner comments that the BM/WW set up makes better beer than he does at the craft brewery and I guess to some extent there is a bit of pissing in the pocket going on as well

Making better beer would have a fair bit to do with the quality of inputs as well as a controlled and repeatable process and if no expense is your criteria and you have unlimited resources at your disposal then you will make better beer as indicated by this quote by the owner of Bacchus Brewery taken from an interview published in a recent James Squires e-mail mail out.

Much has been said about the cost of these units and individuals have used their resourcefulness to replicate the Braumeister but along the way there have been quite a number of issues with putting together the electronics, sealing the malt pipe and pump selection to mention a few. Not that I want to take anything away from these guys efforts but from where I sit it seems to be as much about the DIY challenge as it is about trying to produce better beer.

With all the references to the high cost of these units (Braumeisters and WilliamsWarn) and comments like "I would never purchase one in a fit at those costs" I often wonder how much they invested in the "significant other half" when she said "put a ring on it" both for the ring and the subsequent one day event that followed. I bet a lot didn't get much if any change out of $30 - $40K and didn't think anything of it. Hey if it floated their boat well good on them and go for it.

What's the connection I hear you saying probably nothing it's just another example of how some of us guys spend our money for what ever it is that turns us on at the time

Wobbly

Hey Wobbly,

I think it's great you decided to buy one of these things and give it a go.
I'm sure it must be frustrating to have a multitude of people taking the piss out of your new toy and it's possible some of the posts have been "vanished" by the mods.

Please just stop with what is looking more and more like an infomercial. You've owned it for like five minutes and your going on about it like it's the trusty old work horse that's been the back bone of your brewery for years.

I for one, would like to hear about the limitations of the system, along with the bling. That's the whole point of a discussion right?

To address a couple of points in your (trimmed) post above:

- Are you familiar with the term " Just like a bought one"? "DIY" is a term that is similar to "homebrew" in that regard. Everything is made by someone and it doesn't say much about the quality of something.

- Not everyone is "trying" to replicate/emulate what the quality craft breweries achieve. Many do this without a WW on a regular and repeatable basis. What's the big deal? This makes you sound like you've only ever brewed rubbish until the WW came along.

- Old hags a plenty. http://www.wychwood.co.uk/#/home//hobgoblin/home It seems funny that you keep going on about this new toy like it's a magic box, full of mystery.

- The WW uses techniques that are nothing new. Granted, it does come in a neat little package, but that comes at the cost of limitations.

- Did your mate in SA say that he brews better beer in the WW fermenter, or did he just say it was easier? Does this only work if I use the WW in conjunction with a BM?

- A controllable process and unlimited resources (IMO) will not guarantee good beer. I would agree that the WW fermenter is a very useful tool in that regard.

- I'm definitely part of the DIY crowd, so I guess I should defend my current system, over the BM, in a thread about WW fermenters? What's with all the BM talk? My system does the same ,and more, and can change configurations at the drop of a hat, not to mention the ability to upgrade components at will. It doesn't make it better or worse, but for me it suits my brewing.

- I get your point about the comments on cost. It really does depend on what you're comfortable paying. I also believe that cost is a significant factor for many people and that makes it very relevant in this case ( the WW fermenter, not anything to do with the BM). Many very accomplished brewers have commented on the poor "bang for buck" factor with this piece of equipment. Do you disagree with all those criticisms? Surely, you think the price is up there?

Wobbly, I really hope you have a great time fermenting beer in the WW. I'd buy one in a pinch if I could justify the cost , but with this unit I just don't see it.

In any case, before making such a substantial investment in a small appliance, I'd at least need to see it's faults before purchasing. Nothing's perfect after all.

I haven't been one of the naysayers wobbly but a lot of your rant didn't make a lot of sense. Drawing a very long bow with the wedding comparison for a start.

Still interested in the answer to my question about future designs incorporating wort production if you can get around to it.

Simple answer to the cost criticisms is based on 3 things.

1. Do I want it?
2. Can I afford it?
3. Is it worth it?

If your answer (not anyone else's answer) is yes then great. Someone else might answer no - that doesn't need to trouble you though.

I'd be really interested in knowing if there are any plans for future upgrades as well.

1. Not really sold on it. Would definitely need to run it through it's paces first.
2. I could definitely afford one, but that's not how I make purchasing decisions ( unlike my wife).
3. Considering you can buy a 600l jacketed conical for around the same price, I'd say wait for the price to come down.

 

[Camo6]

I really don't think you need to justify your purchase with us any further Wobbly. You did your research, you liked what you saw and you seemed content with the expense. Arguing your point is only going to fuel the fire, though it is a discussion board I suppose.

Not quite sure of the relevance of your quote from the owner of Bacchus Brewing. I assume you're aware he's made several posts in this thread already?

In regards to the expense of a wedding, I agree they're not cheap but a necessary evil. And if a WW setup will do the things to me that my wife does, I'll buy one tomorrow!

I guess the only one that's gonna know whether this thing improves the taste of your beer now is you. And at the end of the day that's probably the only opinion that matters.

 

[Yob]

Repeatability and expensive equipment are not mutually exclusive.. Nor does bling = repeatability necessarily..

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Mod: no posts have 'vanished' - we encourage healthy debate without abuse and nothing has overstepped the mark. You guys are modding yourselves.


Member: I'd like to see that email and wobbly's subsequent responses put side by side with How to Brew by John Palmer - not a 'homebrew dummy'. It seems like he's making generalisations about his preconceived idea of what homebrewers are.

And requesting an email which calls homebrewers dummies on their own forum seems more in the vein of 'trolling' to me.

We have a number of qualified brewers, chemists, engineers and the like who've made excellent systems on here.

We have a number of homebrew 'dummies' that have launched commercial brewing operations. At the same time craft beer consumption is up, whilst overall beer consumption is down.

And a braumeister is cheaper, way cheaper than this unit, and without the attitude problem of it's creator for all to see.

 

[Elz]

I did my research and waited for almost a year before the WW was delivered ( gen 2 machine). However I can also see that there is some fanboyism, from both sides, creeping into this 'debate'. I reckon I am fairly leveled headed and defend my purchase from a base of research, feedback from other owners ( albeit mainly from positive comments on face book) and past entries on blogs such as this and by overall weighing the pros and cons. I am also mindful that the WW is only in its second iteration and there will likely be further enhancemts in the future. Also likely is that there will be competion from other developers/entrepreneurs in the future, and hopefully even better devises will be made available? Evolution for the benefit of home brewers, in my mind, gotta be a good thing ( for others change is something they may not like as they are happy with the status quo)


(Fanboyism: The collective outlook and behavior of a group of people concerning a subject (movies, games, hardware, comic book characters, etc.) which when challenged results in an antagonistic, passionate, and unreasoned response. This site provides a good overview: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

Ps current Belgium pale ale going down a treat.

 

[black_labb]

I am definitely a hobbyist and enjoy making my own equipment whether it is beer, bike or music related. Over the years I've come to realise that with the right frame of mind and interest in learning you can usually make something that equals if not exceeds commercial offerings as well as being tailored to your own needs. Being someone who likes to learn about things and do something myself means I'm not drawn to the product and I'm not the target market.

Of course many people new to something don't fully understand their own needs or what is important.



There are some very good things about the WWPB but there are a lot of limitations. They assume that pressurised fermentation is uniformly superior. Yes it will subdue esters and make a clean lager but that's not what you want for many types of ales. Then again they seem to dismiss liquid yeast as stupid. Dry yeast is great but there is only a limited range of dry yeasts available and many flavoursome yeasts are only available in liquid. It seems that this product suits lagers and American style ales where yeast character is intentionally muted. There is of course nothing wrong with that but the product is claimed to do everything much better than anything "dumb homebrewers" are able to do. I'd love to see the designer acknowledge the limitations and emphasise the ease of use and time saving features of it. All grain brewing and careful control of fermentation is a slow and laborious process. I and most here love it but you can't do it if you lack the time. Being able to brew quality beer quicker and with less labour is the clear advantage of this system but it seems they are trying to trick people into believing it is better in every other way as well.

 

[wobbly]

For those interested I have attached my observations/experiences to date with my WW

Any way as I said these are my views for what they are worth and I have endeavoured to point out the few minor negatives I have found with the machine non of which I might add in any way detract from the finished beer product. It was just a bit like getting a flat tyre on your new car as you drove it out of the sales show room!!!

I have contacted WW and told them about these few small issues so I guess it is up to them if they take them on board or not

I have had to attach it as a word document as the system won't allow me to "cut and paste" anything from my files into this program. Obviously I am doing something fundamentally and most likely very basically wrong so any thoughts/advise on where I might be going wrong would be appreciated

Cheers

Wobbly

View attachment For those interested here are my first impressions of my WW.docx

 

[manticle]

Are you using IE?
I believe there is an issue with cut/paste in recent versions of it.

 

[wobbly]

Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter

Cheers

w3

 

[SnakeDoctor]

picobrew appears to be significantly better thought out / designed to me [I know they aren't the same product, but there is overlap] :

http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/2/4795602/picobrew-zymatic-is-the-nespresso-of-beer-brewing

 

[Camo6]

Seems like the problems you mention aren't too problematic Wobbly. Did you find the improvement in the taste you were after? (Not trying to be smart)

 

[manticle]

Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter Cheers w3

I'm not great with that stuff but there was a thread somewhere. Will see if I can find it. I know switching browsers is one option - doesn't happen with chrome for example.

 

[Bridges]

Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter

Cheers

w3

I had heaps of issues with IE not able to paste or put in linky's. Google chrome, now all good.

 

[Beerisyummy]

Yes I use IE so any clues on what to do to resolve the matter

Cheers

w3

Just go into the top left corner of the reply box and toggle the little light switch thingy. Perfect fix every time. If you would like to spend hours setting up a new browser "just the way you like it" , go ahead.
The other browsers do work better with the occasional random site IME.

Love your post on the WW under normal usage mate. Top drawer.

Since first reading your post on this equipment, I've tried similar things and can see a whole lot more information being needed beyond the marketing spiel.
Keep up the experiments with the equipment, and the reports of how it goes. I've been the guinea pig on plenty of things over the years, but nothing this costly.

PS. Fans and other things can be sorted with a bit of DIY. Under warranty, I wouldn't touch anything.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Excellent, simple summary.

You mentioned you went 'grain to brain' - I was of the impression that you were using the predetermined extract kits that come with (or are purchase-able for) the machine. I noted them at Harvey Norman.

Otherwise, appears to be a good summary. Hope they're giving you a discount on the machine, given your feedback is consumer based things that will clearly improve the design.

 

[Parks]

It's interesting that it took 4 days for nottingham to get to terminal gravity at that temperature. When I have used it at anything 19+ it's mostly done in the first 36 hours. That's beers up to 1060.

 

[manticle]

LRG - wobbly is making ag wort in a braumeister.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Manticle - really? I didn't pick that up from the photos and the file name being "For those interested here are my first impressions of my WW.docx " - have I missed something here?

Been a bit busy, unwell and the like, I might be being slow :blink: :unsure:

 

[manticle]

Earlier in the thread it is discussed.

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Excellent - read properly. Excuse that!

It's making me look at kegging systems again.