Williamswarn Personal Brewery

[zappa]

Sounds like you've justified your purchase, but to be honest, your latest post sounds more like a marketing spiel. In the interest of full disclosure (and I apologise in advance if you find this offensive), have you been offered any financial gain from WW for marketing?

 

[Yob]

so I guess, if you already have consistency in your brewery, many of the selling points you advocate are mute points?

I use a 4V HERMS rig and consistency isnt an issue, nor, it must be said, is break material making it past my cheap arse kettle.. Oh, and also, my rig is set up for 75 to 100l.. so that also would have to be a large factor..

I really do not understand why you feel the need to prove the point (reads hard sell for some other joker) here, it works for you, great, not everyone has

a. the sort of splash you need for these setups
b. the desire for those sorts of setups.
c. the need for those sorts of setups
d. the space for those sorts of setups

to be frank, Splash, desire, need and space are the 4 big drivers for what system people end up with.. to a large degree.

Well done on showcasing this product but FFS, there is no need to do a hard sell on it.

 

[Ross]

Hi Wobbly,

You boast the system is producing you ester free ales. Esters are a very important part of ales, so not sure why you see this as a plus. But hey, if it's what you want & that's what you're getting, then great


Cheers Ross

 

[TheWiggman]

This thread has been a pretty entertaining read. I think everything's been said already, but I think Ian's got a point with his comments in general which don't really relate to the types on this form. Though the website reads like an infomercial and there is definitely some BS on there.
His product has a specific market, and I don't think the home brew enthusiast is his market. If someone's going to fork out a heap of cash then they want it to work. Dry yeast is easiest and repeatable. Kit brews are hard to get wrong, especially with this system. The extra features (sediment reducer, temp control etc.) all aid to improve beer over your standard Coopers style kit. For someone who is new to brewing and loves the sound of quick, repeatable beer on tap out a flashy-looking stainless unit with almost none of the cleanup or bottling issues most new brewers face, it's a winner. For the blokes on the web site who bought it for their company to park in the corner and enjoy every Friday, it's perfect.

For someone who wants to learn the craft, make all the mistakes, enjoy the whole customisation and satisfaction that comes along with building a setup and calling it "yours", this system doesn't apply. Especially with a price tag like it has.

I really don't understand the comments about lagering not being necessary and all that, as I think quite a few centuries of practice and clear evidence in everyone's own brewing experience suggests otherwise. Maybe the major breweries do turn around a lager in 10 days, I don't know, but people buying this system most likely drink that beer and if the WW has a kit to replicate them in 10 days then both salesman and customer is happy. Ian rightly states that some styles don't work in it and again, he's not trying to sell it to those people.

Personally I'd love to have this system. Complete fermentation and conditioning control, the sediment reducer is a cracker of a concept, no transferring is required and it looks snappy. But wouldn't be any good if I was trying a lambic, only allows one beer on the tap at a time, and I'd still want all my other gear (beer fridge, kegs etc.) and hence wouldn't be the be all and end all system it's purported to be on the website. And there's no way I could ever justify spending ~$8k on it.
It's aimed at a specific customer, and most of us on this forum aren't it.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

When Ian stated that basically we are uneducated trolls, that sealed the deal for a lot of brewrrs.

 

[wobbly]

"Esters are a very important part of ales,"

No Argument - My comment is in relation to those that are considered "Off Flavours" due to high temperature fermentation as with this system/process you just don't get them!!!

"have you been offered any financial gain from WW for marketing?"

No I'm not getting any kick backs nor have I asked for or expect any.

"why you feel the need to prove the point (reads hard sell for some other joker) here,"

Not trying to and neither do I have a "point to prove" just commenting on what I see as an excellent product just as many posters have done following their purchase of a Blichmann "Hop Rocket" for example

There have been a number of post in this thread where individuals have asked/requested updates based on my experiences so if some of you are finding that off putting then it's your choice to read or ignore the posts/updates

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Black n Tan]

Everyone take a deep breath. I really have found this thread disappointing. I don't normally like getting involved in this sort of stuff, but given the wave of negativity I wanted to post my support to hear more about this technology. I suspect I will be hit on the head for these comments, but am a little sick and tried of seeing Wobbly being hit for his comments. The guy from WW may be arrogant, he may be also be wrong with some of his comments, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Let's try to be objective about what this technology may have to offer: faster ferments, may reduce fermentation by-products which is desirable for some styles and has a number of innovative design features. It also has limitations that we should freely discuss. I suspect we will start to see more devices that offer pressurised fermentation and some of the other features of the WW, at more competitive prices in the future, and with more time people may become more accepting of the technology. There was a comment earlier about fanboyish and I think that is exactly what is happening here. Some people are attacking the technology because they don't have one, can't afford one, because they don't like the bloke that made it or because some of his comments were incorrect. I don't find that helpful or valuable to the discussion. This technology is not for everyone, nor probably for most people for a number of reasons, but we should be encouraging owners to speak freely about their experiences. Wobbly may appear to be over selling the technology, but that is hardly surprising considering the wave of negativity every time he speaks. It is human nature to justify our purchase/decisions and I am sure most of us would defend some of our purchases/decisions similarly. He is not telling you must have one or that what you are doing now is inferior. If I was him I wouldn't post again on the matter, and I think that would be a disservice to us all. I for one want to hear here about his experiences with the WW and his perceived benefits. I won't be buying one and have no affiliation with WW, but the idea of pressurised fermentation intrigues me especially for lagers and if I was to make a conical fermenter I would think about incorporating some of the features of the WW.

Wobbly I would love to have a taste of a lager made on this system. I think it would be really worthwhile to do a split a lager batch, and ferment half in the WW and the other half as normal, and then have a blinded taste test. Keep up the posts. I appreciate them.

 

[Yob]

Here's hoping a few more will see the benefits of this machine and make the transition to a different (improved?) style of fermenting

"why you feel the need to prove the point (reads hard sell for some other joker) here,"

Not trying to and neither do I have a "point to prove" just commenting on what I see as an excellent product just as many posters have done following their purchase of a Blichmann "Hop Rocket" for example

Well it sure does read like you are trying to get people to swing that way..

Happy for you if it floats your boat, my ship sails in a different direction. 3 taps worth of different direction in fact :lol:

 

[MastersBrewery]

I think mostly people have been put off by the BS from the seller, as well as the exorbitant price. Pressure conicals are slowly becoming more available and so is the technology to control all the factors controlled with this system. As these become more readily available the WW will have to nearly halve it's current pricing to remain in the market. None of the hardware used is either ground breaking or proprietary, software will really come down to working out what profiles to use. BrewPi already has a thread on pressure control, and gravity sensing is on the hit list.

So to wobbly : cool stuff I just gotta wait for the cheaper version.

MB

 

[Parks]

Personally I think some of you guys need to chill the **** out.

We have the unique opportunity to get some more evidence (be it anecdotal) on the effects of pressure on fermentation.

Some of us asked him to report back on how he felt the system was working. It may have sounded like an infomercial a little but hey...

I would love to hear more about your experiences Wobbly. Even more so, do some experiments with split batches fermented separately.

Wobbly, your "No esters" statement smacked a little of a sales pitch - I would like to know if you felt it had no esters or it simply lacked the yeast character normally produced in alternative fermentations. As Ross mentioned you actually need esters in ales, it's part of their character.

 

[Beerisyummy]

When Ian stated that basically we are uneducated trolls, that sealed the deal for a lot of brewrrs.

I can't imagine where "trolling" comes into the equation.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Then we can copy his design and get the chinese to knock out a cheap version....

 

[Parks]

Good on you Wobbly for keeping up with this thread.

I know a lot of other guys would have taken their bat and sexy brew bling and gone home with some of the comments here.

 

[wobbly]

Thanks for the encouragement Parks.

I am signing off on this thread as I think it has run its race

For those genuinely interested in the design and operation rather than just wanting to bag the machine I will start a new thread under Gear and Equipment titled

"Williamswarn Brewery Operation and Explanation"

For those that either have a WW machine or are considering a purchase or even those pressure fermenting in a corny are I encourage you to join in the conversation and contribute to the over all knowledge of this method of brewing

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[roger mellie]

Wobbly

Cheers for this thread - and subsequent offline discussions we had about the WW and other stuff. I swear allegiance to the flag - I brought a WW on the weekend - not done my first brew yet as I needed some JG fittings to plumb it in to my brewery.

I have read this thread and seriously a lot of what has been said is the reason I lurk here more than contribute - and I admire your resolve in keeping to the facts as you see them.

Just to add some perspective - my own 2c - Ian Williams has forgotten more about brewing that most of us will know. He is also very free with his information and let me brew a fresh wort kit I did in my BM20 in one of his showroom machines. I found him completely NOT arrogant - just a brewer from the megaswill side of the tracks who has tried to make some money by making the process of making craft beer at home as simple and hassle free as he could - and I think he has absolutely nailed it. The fact that he made some comments about liquid yeast and various other stuff is his opinion - everyone is entitled to theirs. He maintains that liquid yeast is viable for 5 days - doesn't mean I won't use it - I have never had a problem with it and I know it will work in his machine. I guess the standpoint he is defending is that claims he makes about the timeframe - which is also something I don't care about - I also don't agree with his temperature profiles (yet) - the Amber Ale I made with S-04 was fermented at 23 DegC - was finished (1.048 --> 1.007) in < 2 days including 8 hours latency for the yeast to start. Of course its going to be slower if you bring that back down to (normal) 18 degC. Will it affect the flavour profile ?? - I have a whole lot of experimenting to do to find out.

The fact that he has designed his system around the relative simplicity of a K&K method is secondary to the whole argument I believe - the actual 'system' he has designed is completely flexible and probably for all but 10% of 'out there' beers (Lambics, Ultra High Gravity Beers etc...) it is an excellent way of fermenting. I won't be attempting a RIS for example.

I firmly believe that there is no better way to make a beer than to exclude Oxygen post pitching. I believe that the WW does this (and I believe that for a shitload less money you could fashion something very similar and I probably would have if I had the time - I don't).

I will happily contribute to the new thread.

Cheers

RM

WW #00358

 

[dicko]

Guys, I have moved the appropriate posts from this topic to the new topic below.

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/78448-williamswarn-brewery-operation-and-explanation/

And Welcome Back to the forum Roger

 

[mooncat]

I don't want get into the discussion about the merits of the WilliamsWarn as I have one and it's perfect for my needs. Having made some, in my view, excellent beers I am looking at tweaks. I have dry hopped at the beginning of ferment and used the sediment bottle to dry hop in a muslin bag after clarification. I would be interested in opinions as to the merits or otherwise of making a hop tea in a sterilised cafetiere at 80 degrees, putting that into the sediment bottle and topping with foam to limit oxygen into the brew. This may be a question that only makes sense to williamswarn users but I'm happy to listen to others views. However as a gentle soul who wouldn't think of criticising others approaches to this wonderful creative pastime I would welcome thoughts and constructive criticism

 

[Dan Pratt]

Hi Mooncat,

I have learnt that when dry hopping at the beginning of ferment the results had not been favourable, this is with a std fermentation vessel.

Im interested to know how the dry hopping at the beginning of ferment turned out, does the Co2 pressure during this time aid in creating a better hops aroma?

Also curios why the post fermentation hops would be added to the sediment botttle, how do the hops actually get through the beer if they are at the base of the vessel already?

 

[Grainer]

IF YOU DIDNT MAKE YOUR RIG IT AINT WORTH IT !!!.. there is more satisfaction out of brewing from a beat up old $20 pot and a bag.. and nailing that brew LOL

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Not for me. But we all brew for different reasons.

I see that even if the cost were significantly lower, the advantages (for me) are outweighed by the disadvantages.

But for me, the advantages of K&K brewing are outweighed the disadvantages of that method. But for others, simplicity, ease of use and less time are their aim. Whereas AGers often care more about the process behind the scenes. It's a personality and cost-benefit thing.

I'm beating myself up about spending less than a grand on a basic kegging set - yet this machine is several times that amount for half the functionality of my (currently mythical) kegging set plus the cost of my basic ghetto AG brewery. For me, that doesn't demonstrate value for money. Having said that, I'd rather spend that money on plane tickets overseas for the family - yet someone else would see that as throwing money away with nothing tangible to show for it. (not that I have that money at any rate, just for the example's sake).

To each their own, and brew and let brew (to play with Sir Paul McCartney's song a bit).