Where Have I Gone Wrong?

[drsmurto]

Unless it was unconverted starch from raw wheat or any malt in general, it should be as bright as any other beer you make. I do find however that beers i make with wheat end up with a milkier trub/kettle break but never effects the final products clarity.

Agree with Fourstar.

I never have trouble producing a bright golden ale. Patience and/or gelatine in combination with cold conditioning does the trick.

 

[Bribie G]

Now that's the other thing you could try, remove and de-gas the keg, pour in a dose of gelatine, swirl well and let it sit for a few days back in the kegerator and see if that clears it.

 

[BjornJ]

I have read a couple of times that wheat can cause less clear beer, like in this BJCP presentation:

http://www.mgriesmeyer.com/doatest/bjcp/Br...g%20Process.pdf

it says using wheat in 5-12% can cause haze and that using low AA% hops can also reduce clearness as there is more hop material for the same IBU. And that extensive sparging will reduce clearness, so it sounds we can improve/destroy clarity with process as well.


or this: http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backi...1.1/bergen.html

he other important thing about wheat malt is that it contains considerably more protein than barley malt, often about 14-18%, and the glutenous nature of wheat protein causes considerable haze as well as promoting terrific head formation and retention. Conversion is not a problem, because wheat malt contains ample diastase


I don't know what is or isn't valid here, and my only try on the Dr Smurto's Golden Ale was made while my urn broke down so it probably didn't get a good boil for long enough. I definitely will be trying it again, and with a long, hard boil and a rapid chill, to help clear the beer before finings and polyclar.

I just assumed it was the high wheat content as it was my cloudiest beer by far, not pointing any fingers or anything




thanks
Bjorn

 

[hairofthedog]

did you use whirlfloc in boil ?

 

[enoch]

remove and de-gas the keg, pour in a dose of gelatine

Where is the fun in that?
You can add gelatine to a gassed keg but it gets exciting - can you beat the volcanoe of errupting beer with the lid?

 

[BjornJ]

did you use whirlfloc in boil ?

Not trying to hijack the thread here, just chiming in

I used isinglass and polyclar, then split and fermented half with recultured coopers pale ale yeast and half with WLP001 and both are orange and unclear.

 

[Fourstar]

Simply put, wheat malt causes permanent haze = bullshit. Especially if you are filtering your beer. Take a krystallweizen for example. It has a minimum 50% wheat malt and its diamond bright. Anything else, will in time flocc out and provide you with bright beer unless you have an infection of sorts or disturbing its storage vessel. If someone put down 'wheat is a cuase for haze' on their bjcp course without ample justification im sure they would not gain any marks from it. Protein in itself should flocc out during cold storage and or filtration. If there is any residual protein left behind after these processes the next major issue we would be running into is chill haze. Which is caused by proteins in conjunction with tannins. To have chill haze you need both, not one or the other.

I think the issue with the references bjorn has found is they have not justified how wheat malt causes haze as protein itself is not enough justification as barley malt has this trait too.. just not as high.

there are alot of myths about what malt, e.g. causes beers to taste sour, increases head retention (maybe formation but not necessarily retention, same thing goes for carapils.)

 

[Screwtop]

there are alot of myths about what malt, e.g. causes beers to taste sour, increases head retention (maybe formation but not necessarily retention, same thing goes for carapils.)

:blink:

 

[chappo1970]

Mitch,
Can I suggest if you are going to brew someone's recipe that you try to stick as close to that recipe as possible. Using T58 (the SOB of all yeasts) IMO and S04 would obviously be a start. IIRC the good DrS uses Us05 which is a very clean and neutral yeast. You on the other hand went a Belgian sour/tart-ish and a Dusty dirty english yeast.

Also I would try to get the basics right as others have suggested previously. But maybe via PM run thru your brew procedures and recipe with the likes of BribieG and RdeVjun. Both who are exceptional and experienced brewers and BIABers.

Sorry I don't see the mystery here?

Seriously you did 3 things that have contributed to that beer being the way it is:
1. poor brewing technique but only because you are learning (wouldn't worry everyone does it)
2. poor ingredient, product selection and or substitution (that comes with experience)
3. poor yeast management and temp control (by the sound of it it was out of your hands regardless)

The biggest thing is to learn from your mistakes to move on upwards and onwards.

I'm surprised though that someone hasn't chimed in with the "BIAB=cloudy/ icky beer" old hoary chestnut though, what's up with you guys??!! h34r:

Oh come on Ralph you know I wouldn't stoop to that level. Bloody pillow case brewers always making trouble for us REAL brewers! :lol:

 

[BjornJ]

I think the issue with the references bjorn has found is they have not justified how wheat malt causes haze as protein itself is not enough justification as barley malt has this trait too.. just not as high.

You're probably right, lots of half-truths and assumptions and hard to tell what is scientific and what is beliefs. The presentation says if you have more than 40% wheat the haze go away but if 5-12% the haze stays, go figure, hehe...

I guess more to the point is that if DrSmurto uses this recipe and gets clear beer, we can safely assume it is process and not recipe?

Another thing I have thought about this beer is that the hopping is only 45 min, 20 and 0. So possible that the shorter boil means less hot-break and less clarity as well?

(Assuming DrSmurto is not filtering and still getting clear beer)



Bjorn

 

[manticle]

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that the haze in a hefeweizen is due to the yeast rather than the wheat. I've added 1kg+ wheat malt to beers that achive the same clarity as those I make without.

there are alot of myths about what malt, e.g. causes beers to taste sour, increases head retention (maybe formation but not necessarily retention, same thing goes for carapils.)

I assume what malt is wheat malt? My small experience of using it is that all other things being equal it assists in a beautiful fluffy head that remains throughout. I haven't used cara-pils but was thinking about adding some into my porter that seems to form a head but not hold it. If there are other things I can try before that though (mash regime etc) then I will.

I have to admit the above sentence is a little confusing. Can you expand?

 

[Fourstar]

:blink:

:blink: :blink:

What part? Sour or retention?

Maybe its just me but i hate it when wheat malt or carapils are referred as being head 'retainers'. Ive had plenty of HB weizens, wits and beers with wheat used and alot of them have had poor retention, almost non existant. Most have a good head on pour (atleast the ones without carbonation issues) but as for retention, i'd say it is few and far between. I remember reading a text (scouring atm for it) that malts high in dextrins and medium chained proteins crystals, carapils and yes, wheat aid in the formation of foam.

However, for this foam to hold there are other important elements such as hop oils, carbonation and (one thing i remember, it sounds strange) limiting the amount of foam created during aeration and fermentation as it will cause the breakdown onf important foam retaining/formation "insert catalyst here"

I'll have a hunt for it this evening. its somewhere out on the interwebs. Maybe thats the issue, probably something unjustified :lol:

EDIT: http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/arti...5-fabulous-foam - ok i found this, not what i was referring to but it has decent HB related, easy to digest information about head retention/formation. You will notice they seperate the retention part which they primarily speak about beer viscosity.

 

[drsmurto]

You're probably right, lots of half-truths and assumptions and hard to tell what is scientific and what is beliefs. The presentation says if you have more than 40% wheat the haze go away but if 5-12% the haze stays, go figure, hehe...

I guess more to the point is that if DrSmurto uses this recipe and gets clear beer, we can safely assume it is process and not recipe?

Another thing I have thought about this beer is that the hopping is only 45 min, 20 and 0. So possible that the shorter boil means less hot-break and less clarity as well?

(Assuming DrSmurto is not filtering and still getting clear beer)



Bjorn

Don't own a filter Bjorn.

Whirlfloc in the boil, gelatine post fermentation at 1C during cold conditioning which for me is normally 1-2 weeks for this beer. Depending on what temperature my keg fridge is set on (seasonally dependant) i may or may not use polyclar as well.

If anyone has question relating to this beer there is a discussion thread - here

I am always happy to answer PMs on this, Landlord or anything else related to brewing.

When i first started thinking about AG i hounded the more experienced people via PM (and still do) and they were always more than willing to answer my questions so i am happy to do the same.

As for the topic in question, Mitch pitched an english ale yeast and nothing happened for a week so there was a delay which gave any wild yeast a very good chance of flying in for a free feed. Then he pitched a belgian yeast known for low attenuation and throwing spice and phenolic fermented at the upper ends of its range which explains the FG of 1.016 (vs 1.010/2 if using US05) and therefore sweet tasting and the flavour of hoegarden. The cloudiness could be from a raneg fo things - lack of clarifying agents, so it could be a combination of yeast and chill haze and possibly protein haze.

Its your 1st AG Mitch, you have made a big step and should be happy since its a great achievement. Some more reading of books such as Palmer's How to Brew and more reading/asking questions here and you'll improve. You are more than welcome to PM me if you want to ask any questions.

Now RDWHAHB.

Cheers :chug:
DrSmurto

 

[Fourstar]

Don't own a filter Bjorn.
Whirlfloc in the boil, gelatine post fermentation at 1C during cold conditioning which for me is normally 1-2 weeks for this beer. Depending on what temperature my keg fridge is set on (seasonally dependant) i may or may not use polyclar as well.

Juxtapose to this i have a filter and i no longer add kettle finnings or gelatine kegs but i have just ordered some polyclar to combat the chill haze i get with beers that need to be diamond bright. After all, if i miss out on another 2nd place by 1 point again i'll shoot myself. Polyclar fits in with my 2010 brewing resoultions. (enter all VIC comps, sub clause, always get a 3 on appearance. ) Haha!