Wheat beer Yeast help

[Chookers]

I will very soon be making a Wheat beer, I will most likely be using Mangrove Jacks M20, despite originally following advice to use Forbidden Fruit. I am not so sure those flavours are what I was after.

I do not want a sour beer. I do want to taste some fruits but I do not want Bananarama.

I have read that if you under pitch your yeast you get more fruits, so my question is how would I go about under pitching this yeast to get noticeable fruits, in a 12L batch?

and out of curiosity and because I haven't fully committed yet, how would I do this with the Forbidden Fruit.

Thanks in advance to those generous teachers out there..

 

[mr_wibble]

The under-pitching refers to the yeast Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan (and the White-labs version).

The key with a good German-style wheat beer (i.e.: Hefeweizen), is to balance the banana aroma with the clove.
It's easy to get more clove with '3068 - pitch a good lot of yeast. To get the balance toward the banana, you need to pitch a lower amount of yeast.

But how low?

There is a "Basic Brewing Radio" show where a guy presents some results on an experiment doing just this:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio - look for "Hefeweizen Pitching Rate Experiment"
Or a link to stream the .mp3 -> http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/bbr08-20-15hefeexp.mp3
(I notice there is also a newer one on fermentation temperature in the same theme, I haven't listened to that yet)

In this programme, the experimenter explains that (by mistake) he pitched only 30% of the ideal amount of yeast. But even that beer was appreciated by his tasting panel. EDIT: I'm not advocating pitching 30% of a pack BTW.

FWIW "Forbidden Fruit" is typically a Belgian pale ale yeast. I love it, and reckon it would make a great beer with most worts.
But it will not make a hefeweizen.

If you don't care about the style so much, Forbidden Fruit could make a great beer, but so would a lot of other yeasts, probably M20 too.
Personally I really like the hefeweizen style, so if I'm making a wheat beer I will only ferment with Weihenstephan yeast.
I did try to get the Ayinger yeast from Wyeast, but (at the time) they didn't have it in saleable quantities.
I don't think I have used M20, but I have used Fermentis wheat beer yeast (Safbrew WB-06) a few times. For hefewiezen it's chalk & cheese against '3068.

Of course if you don't want a whole lot of esters in your beer anyway, as with other styles, keep the fermentation temperature lower. I ferment '3068 at 18-19C. Reports I've read here say 20C gives a lot of esters with '3068.

When I use '3068, I smack the pack the day before. I pitch it into about a 22 litre batch. According to what I've read, this is a modest under-pitch. I'm reasonably happy with the result. Although my taste is quite sensitive to the clove ester, so maybe you'd find this too banana-ry.

 

[Weizguy]

First up, I have to state that ALL wheat beers are NOT the same, and it aggravates me that brewers use it as a generic term when they obviously mean otherwise.

There are the main types of: Hefeweizen (Weiss or Dunkel, and I suppose Bock), Belgian WItbier (with orange and coriander and clove flavours), and the American Wheat beer, which is similar to a low-hopped, low bitterness APA with wheat.

Forbidden Fruit (Verboten Vrucht) is a Wit-style and unsuitable for pretty much any other style of beer (maybe honey blonde, but I stray from the topic).

Please specify the style, or even the beer you are trying to emulate in style (e.g Schofferhofer, Hoegaarden, Burleigh Brewing hefe, Moo Brew hefe, Redback, etc) and then we can help you more.

Les out (*edited for spelling - Pedantry, I know)

 

[mr_wibble]

First up, I have to state that ALL wheat beers are NOT the same, and it aggravates me that brewers use it as a generic term when they obviously mean otherwise.

Yeah, but hefeweizen is the only one that matters

 

[Chookers]

Sorry Les I see by your name that you are passionate about this, but I am new to Wheat Beers and I was trying to do this diplomatically which is why I didn't say a style.. I didn't want to say a style of wheat beer and be talking about it when I know absolutely nothing about it, that's why I used the general term 'Wheat Beer'.

From your other posts and roaming around these forums I have read a lot and checked the style guides, Weissbier or Hefeweizen I suppose is what I'd be going for, or is Weissbier just German for Wheat Beer?

On your recommendation I tried the Schofferhofer Hefeweizen and the Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier. I liked the Weihenstephaner better. I see on the bottle one is Bavarian style and one is German. I found the german one farty.

I wouldn't want to put coriander in my beer. I like the idea of the cloves and banana flavours and I have read vanilla comes through too sometimes which is why I was leaning towards the M20 yeast. I also wouldn't mind if citrus flavours came through, but I would be hesitant to add any rinds. I do NOT want a sour beer that's for sure.

This is my first Wheat based beer, I was going to experiment with it, put 4L on some Raspberries or other fruit, and have the rest 'au naturale'

Sorry if I get the terms wrong or style names (or lack thereof) I am still learning. Please be patient with me. I thank you for your comments and advice.

 

[Chookers]

Thanks Mr Wibble, I found it at http://www.hommelhomebrew.com/?cat=42 this is exactly what I wanted. I wouldn't have found it without your links. cheers

 

[Chookers]

Anyone out there think Summer and Willamette would work in this beer?

 

[Bribie G]

OT but American Wheat beers such as Murray's Whale Ale are yummy.

 

[Chookers]

I know Bribie, I thought it was cheeky.. but I hijacked my own, should I take it off.. h34r:

 

[earle]

Sorry Les I see by your name that you are passionate about this, but I am new to Wheat Beers and I was trying to do this diplomatically which is why I didn't say a style.. I didn't want to say a style of wheat beer and be talking about it when I know absolutely nothing about it, that's why I used the general term 'Wheat Beer'.

From your other posts and roaming around these forums I have read a lot and checked the style guides, Weissbier or Hefeweizen I suppose is what I'd be going for, or is Weissbier just German for Wheat Beer?

On your recommendation I tried the Schofferhofer Hefeweizen and the Weihenstephaner Hefe Weissbier. I liked the Weihenstephaner better. I see on the bottle one is Bavarian style and one is German. I found the german one farty.

I wouldn't want to put coriander in my beer. I like the idea of the cloves and banana flavours and I have read vanilla comes through too sometimes which is why I was leaning towards the M20 yeast. I also wouldn't mind if citrus flavours came through, but I would be hesitant to add any rinds. I do NOT want a sour beer that's for sure.

This is my first Wheat based beer, I was going to experiment with it, put 4L on some Raspberries or other fruit, and have the rest 'au naturale'

Sorry if I get the terms wrong or style names (or lack thereof) I am still learning. Please be patient with me. I thank you for your comments and advice.

Ok, sounds like you want to brew a weizen (also called hefeweizen or weissbier)

Forget about sourness, that's a berliner Weiss - totally different style.

Forget about citrus (and coriander) - that's a Belgian wit - again a totally different style

Forget lots of hops - that's an American wheat - totally different style

As you can see, like Les said, if you specify a style or brand name, you'll get much better advice.

Go the M20, there's another recent thread on it. In general, temp defines what flavours you get from the yeast, banana or clove. I've read that about 17C will give a nice balance of both.

A weizen is about the wheat and the yeast. Don't overcomplicate the recipe past that. Good malt bill, noble hops at 60 min and maybe a small dose late but the style really is about the yeast, not hops. I only use a 60min addition in my weizens for the desired bitterness, no other additions so very little hop flavour or aroma.

 

[earle]

Anyone out there think Summer and Willamette would work in this beer?

No, hops for bittering mainly. As above, noble hops for bitterness, very little hops otherwise.

 

[Blind Dog]

Anyone out there think Summer and Willamette would work in this beer?

Both will 'work', but neither will give you a traditional German weissbier; summer (IMO) is likely to get you closest. Personally I'd try it and see as the playing around with ingredients is half the fun of what we do and you may just strike Homebrew gold

 

[Chookers]

Thanks for the breakdown earle its helping a lot to clarify this..

Thanks Blind dog.. I like experimenting..

also my hop choices are limited to Nelson Sauvin, Motueka (BSAAZ), Summer and Willamette. I don't know if any of what I have would work for a traditional German Weissbier.. so I wouldn't win any comps then if I submitted this as a Hefe using any of them?

sorry I know its OffTopic again.

 

[earle]

If you're only going to add a 60min addition for bittering it won't matter that much. Choose the highest AA% hop of what you have so you don't need to use as much.

 

[Coodgee]

I would actually disagree with this. I find my lager brewed with saaz are a lot smoother and mellower than the same ibu with magnum. I found the difference to be quite striking. My personal experience only.

 

[Topher]

Mate Ive used summer in a hefe before and it's fine. Use it at 60min only.

 

[Chookers]

Thanks guys, it looks like the general consensus is 60min regardless.. One more item ticked off my list.

Coodgee I will try the Bsaaz then.

I may do another experiment with the Summer.. I'll see how I go.

 

[danestead]

A few translations of German to help you figure out what the different German wheat beer names mean because it confused the heck out of me before I knew. I think most of the German wheat beers are the same style but different regions tend to use the following different terms in different ways to label their beer.

Weizen - wheat
Weiss - white
Dunkel - dark
Hefe - yeast
Bier - beer

I also believe wit translates to white but I'd say that's dutch.

 

[jyo]

Back to your original concerns about Bananarama. Ferment the M20 at 17-18' and you will get a subtle balance of clove, vanilla and banana. Higher into the 20's and you will get this-

https://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://vanegmond.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/66-BANANARAMA-1989.jpg&imgrefurl=http://vanegmond.com.au/events/bananarama/&h=600&w=1000&tbnid=EfRd7RiLczsmqM:&docid=LBe-QX1xve9TyM&ei=M2ySVq7yLITOmwWXvLuwDw&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwju16Hcu5_KAhUE56YKHRfeDvYQMwgxKAAwAA

M20 is actually a nice dried weizen yeast. I personally wouldn't use Willamette. For me, a Hefe is Tettnanger, Hallertau or Hersbrucker.

 

[Chookers]

danestead, thanks for the translation.. Weizen and Weiss were confusing my a bit.

Thanks jyo, love the pic... I thought Willamette could be used as a substitute for those hops, I know its your opinion, (which I trust more than the generic hop lists), should I trust these lists?