Wheat beer fermentation <pitch> + <ferment> = 30

[mr_wibble]

So i pitched my '3068 into the wort last night when it was 11C.
I know I theoretically have to now raise the temp to 19 - but at what rate?

Do i want to be at 19c within (say) 24 hours?
Something else?

Thanks,
-kt

 

[jhsbaker]

Set your temp control to 19 degC with no heating and you'll be fine.

 

[mr_wibble]

Set your temp control to 19 degC with no heating and you'll be fine.

Ahh... I better go buy an in-line switch for that heat-pad then

 

[TheWiggman]

Set your temp control to 19 degC with no heating and you'll be fine.

That assumes the ambient temp is 19°C or higher.

Mr No-Tip has won a few awards with his wheats and said to slowly raise the temp over a few days using WLP300, which is the same strain as 3068. I've personally used it a few times and I don't think there is any issue. It ferments hard and fast. I've fermented at 24°C using recultured yeast and ended up with a very decent example of weissbier. Combined with a ferrulic acid rest, flavour-wise it was much more 4VG than it was banana.
Assuming you've given it a healthy pitch, if you're after banana/bubblegum then I'd be raising the temp quickly and higher than 19°C. If you're favouring phenolics and 4VG, don't stress and let it rise slowly and incrementally.

Incidentally, 11°C is very low for this strain and I doubt you'll see much or any action. But when the temp goes up, if you don't have a blowoff tube I hope you're ready to clean up a mess.

 

[Adr_0]

I have seen this advice a fair bit, but my understanding was this temperature rule worked best for open fermentations in low, rectangular fermenters - ie very low pressure to not inhibit ester fermentation. So - and this is just my understanding - with these conditions free to produce esters, the temperature is typically lower to also let the phenolics come through.

With a tall homebrew fermenter under an airlock there is probably more pressure than is ideal, so there is probably slightly more suppression of esters. Glad wrap probably helps but there is probably still a 1.5-2:1 height;width ratio which is much higher than the wide, flat fermenters Weihenstephan use. So in the homebrew setting that 30°C rule should probably have a few degrees added to it.

 

[O-beer-wan-kenobi]

Does this fermentation temp rule apply to most wheat yeasts?
I have WLP351 which I think is the WY3638, I have read they produce less banana esters, do you think this would need to follow the same rule?

 

[verysupple]

I have seen this advice a fair bit, but my understanding was this temperature rule worked best for open fermentations in low, rectangular fermenters - ie very low pressure to not inhibit ester fermentation. So - and this is just my understanding - with these conditions free to produce esters, the temperature is typically lower to also let the phenolics come through.

With a tall homebrew fermenter under an airlock there is probably more pressure than is ideal, so there is probably slightly more suppression of esters. Glad wrap probably helps but there is probably still a 1.5-2:1 height;width ratio which is much higher than the wide, flat fermenters Weihenstephan use. So in the homebrew setting that 30°C rule should probably have a few degrees added to it.

You're right about the FV shape in a commercial environment being shallow and wide to minimise the hydrostatic pressure to allow more ester production, but also it lets out the sulphur better. While a homebrew FV is narrower than it is tall, it's the depth that really matters when it comes to the ester production (width doesn't come in to it). A homebrew FV is very shallow compared to the traditional Bavarian open FVs so the hyrdostatic pressure in a homebrew FV would be less even with an airlock.

 

[Adr_0]

You're right about the FV shape in a commercial environment being shallow and wide to minimise the hydrostatic pressure to allow more ester production, but also it lets out the sulphur better. While a homebrew FV is narrower than it is tall, it's the depth that really matters when it comes to the ester production (width doesn't come in to it). A homebrew FV is very shallow compared to the traditional Bavarian open FVs so the hyrdostatic pressure in a homebrew FV would be less even with an airlock.

Yeah I think you're right - the height of a homebrew fermenter (0.4-0.7m) vs 2-8m commercial fermenter is vastly different. On a commercial scale this would be far more significant, where your depth could be 2-3m in a rectangular tank vs 8m in a cylindro-conical. The reason the height/width ratio (for commercial sizes) is relevant is for the same volume, far less of your beer is exposed to high, ester-suppressing pressures. On the homebrew scale, our fermenters will be like skimming the top 0.4-0.7m of a rectangular tank anyway.

This is a good read for those who are interested:
http://www.mbaa.com/districts/MidSouth/Events/Documents/2010-03-13Wheat_Beer_Yeast__Fermentation2.pdf

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

That assumes the ambient temp is 19°C or higher.
.

I've found it can even do it itself into the low teens, just through a sealed chamber and the yeast's exothermic action. I apply heat inwinter

I have seen this advice a fair bit, but my understanding was this temperature rule worked best for open fermentations in low, rectangular fermenters - ie very low pressure to not inhibit ester fermentation. So - and this is just my understanding - with these conditions free to produce esters, the temperature is typically lower to also let the phenolics come through.

With a tall homebrew fermenter under an airlock there is probably more pressure than is ideal, so there is probably slightly more suppression of esters. Glad wrap probably helps but there is probably still a 1.5-2:1 height;width ratio which is much higher than the wide, flat fermenters Weihenstephan use. So in the homebrew setting that 30°C rule should probably have a few degrees added to it.

I've never really consider fermenter geometry in this. Very good food for thought. My "30 rule", coincidentally is a 31.5 rule...

 

[Adr_0]

I've found it can even do it itself into the low teens, just through a sealed chamber and the yeast's exothermic action. I apply heat inwinter


I've never really consider fermenter geometry in this. Very good food for thought. My "30 rule", coincidentally is a 31.5 rule...

I think the geometry is relevant for commercial brewing but not homebrew. Yeast count and viability (homebrew vs commercial) no doubt plays a factor but I've never had a wheat beer low on esters... I've also never fermented less than 20°C. Typically I would add an acid rest to lift the phenolics to balance, or for dunkelweizen, rather than lower the temp.

 

[Weizguy]

I think the geometry is relevant for commercial brewing but not homebrew. Yeast count and viability (homebrew vs commercial) no doubt plays a factor but I've never had a wheat beer low on esters... I've also never fermented less than 20°C. Typically I would add an acid rest to lift the phenolics to balance, or for dunkelweizen, rather than lower the temp.

I've some balanced ester/phenolic weizen at 17° with a decent yeast pitch. My latest weizen is sulphury and under-estered at 20-22° pitching a single pack of W3638 to a 25 litre batch of 1.048 weizen.
Just hoping the sulphur clears.

Would love a Schneider-istic result like I once made.

 

[Adr_0]

I think the geometry is relevant for commercial brewing but not homebrew. Yeast count and viability (homebrew vs commercial) no doubt plays a factor but I've never had a wheat beer low on esters... I've also never fermented less than 20°C. Typically I would add an acid rest to lift the phenolics to balance, or for dunkelweizen, rather than lower the temp.

I should clarify that I've used 3333 for the last 5 or 6 wheats I've done, and 3638 for one.

I've some balanced ester/phenolic weizen at 17° with a decent yeast pitch. My latest weizen is sulphury and under-estered at 20-22° pitching a single pack of W3638 to a 25 litre batch of 1.048 weizen.
Just hoping the sulphur clears.

Would love a Schneider-istic result like I once made.

I always thought the 3638 yeast was Paulaner. I made a hefeweizen in Feb last year with this yeast and it was nearly identical... bit light on the cloves but I didn't do an acid rest, which may have helped.

No idea which yeast Scheider use. I haven't had a Schneider for about 10 years (except Aventinus) and thought that the 3333 would work well in an Aventinus clone (3333 is a touch tart), starting at 16-17 and allowing to rise to 22 or so. I have never ended up doing it though so this can't give any feedback. I need to get a hold of some Schneider actually...

Don't you love how we've hijacked this thread? I think Mr Wibble has been answered (allow to rise with heat from the yeast and ambient if necessary) so hope he doesn't mind...

 

[verysupple]

It's getting slightly off topic but I don't think people will mind learning a bit more about weissbier yeasts too much.

I should clarify that I've used 3333 for the last 5 or 6 wheats I've done, and 3638 for one.

I always thought the 3638 yeast was Paulaner. I made a hefeweizen in Feb last year with this yeast and it was nearly identical... bit light on the cloves but I didn't do an acid rest, which may have helped.

No idea which yeast Scheider use. I haven't had a Schneider for about 10 years (except Aventinus) and thought that the 3333 would work well in an Aventinus clone (3333 is a touch tart), starting at 16-17 and allowing to rise to 22 or so. I have never ended up doing it though so this can't give any feedback. I need to get a hold of some Schneider actually...

Don't you love how we've hijacked this thread? I think Mr Wibble has been answered (allow to rise with heat from the yeast and ambient if necessary) so hope he doesn't mind...

A lot of people think that Wy3638 is the Schneider strain, but who really knows? This is what the Schneider brewmaster, Hans-Peter Drexler, says about their strain in the 2006 BYO article Weissbier:

“Ours is a single-strain house yeast based on the common Weihen-stephan 68 variety. I should stress that the standard Weihenstephan 68 produces not only phenols but also plenty of esters, while our own variation of that yeast emphasizes phenol over ester production, which is one reason why most other Bavarian wheat beers taste slightly fruitier-esterier and less clovey-phenolic than our Schneider beers.”

Weihenstephan 68 is Wy3068 and possibly WLP300.

 

[Adr_0]

Not sure what happened to the W-66 strain, as it does appear on the 'bank' list:
http://www.hefebank-weihenstephan.de/strains.html



It's definitely not the W-66/70, as the characteristics are vastly different.

The W-175 strain apparently has higher ester formation, according to the Weihenstephan yeast bank website. The 3638 I used in that Feb-2014 wheat beer was extremely cloudy, and next to a Paulaner Hefe looked identical - and tasted similar. As above if I had done an acid rest it would have been difficult to tell them apart. So I have some doubts that the 3638 is the Schneider yeast - I'm sure that it's exactly as they say, that it started as the W-68/3068 strain and they have just let it mutate to suit their conditions. My 2c, I'm a very long way from an expert...

Extract from the earlier link:
YEAST SELECTION
• Weihenstephan 68 balanced ester/phenol profile WL300
• Weihenstephan 175 moderately high, spicy, phenolic overtones reminiscent
of cloves WL351, W3638
• Weihenstephan 66 Subtle flavor profile for wheat yeast with unique sharp tart
crispness, fruity, sherry-like palate W3333
Large clove and phenolic aroma and flavor, with minimal banana. Refreshing citrus
and apricot notes WL380

 

[Spohaw]

Would wyeast 3463 forbidden fruit be any good for a wit ? ... got a wit beer fermenting with that at the moment

 

[verysupple]

Would wyeast 3463 forbidden fruit be any good for a wit ? ... got a wit beer fermenting with that at the moment

Great for a wit...not so much for a weissbier.

 

[dcan6303]

While we are on the topic of wheat yeasts, I want to do a Belgian Wit inspired wheat beer with a handful of fresh cumquats just picked from my backyard at the end of the boil and a bunch more added in secondary along the lines of an article I saw in zymurgy. I already have the recipe as follows:

2.00 kg Pilsner (3.9 EBC) Grain 1 42.6 %
2.00 kg Wheat Malt (3.0 EBC) Grain 2 42.6 %
0.50 kg Oats, Flaked (2.0 EBC) Grain 3 10.6 %
0.20 kg Munich Malt (17.7 EBC) Grain 4 4.3 %
25.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 5 13.1 IBUs
100.00 g Cumquats - halved (Boil 5.0 mins)
3.00 Items Chamomile Flowers (tea bags) (Boil 5.0 mins)
15.00 g Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)
700.00 g Cumquats - halved (Secondary 7.0 days)

Ideally I would be using WLP400 but I already have on hand:

WLP550 Belgian Ale
WLP300 Hefeweizen
WLP320 American Hefeweizen

Any opinions on what would suit this beer best? I'm leaning towards the 550, as it sounds like it has a similar flavour profile to the 400. Thoughts?

 

[mr_wibble]

Well, we just got the power back on a few hours short of a week.

So the wheat beer fermeneted at whatever temperature it wanted to reach, and I never even had time to look.