What Went Wrong? Bohemian Pilsner

[tcapach]

Hi team,

First AG and first post, so please go easy!

I have just embarked on the no look back journey to all grain brewing. Perhaps a little ambitious to do a lager rather than an ale first, but what the hey...

I have just cracked my first bottle (perhaps a little early, but am so damn keen to see how it has turned out!) and it has good clarity, reasonable carbonation and head retention, not as much hop aroma as I would have liked, but the big issue that I have is that it is quite sweet (and fuller bodied than expected)!?
I can understand why the hop aroma isn't as much as I would like, but I can't understand the sweetness and body...
Please can anybody shed any light? Here is some detail (sorry if it isn't in the correct format!):

4kg light pilsner malt
0.82kg light munich malt
Mash w/ 13L @ 64.4oC for 75mins
Batch Sparge with roughly 3 x 6L.
Pre boil volume about 25L

Boil time: 64mins
40g Saaz (6.3%) 42mins
30g Saaz (6.3%) 18mins
30g Saaz (6.3%) 0mins

Whirlfloc tablet @ 18mins

Wyeast 2001 smack pack

OG: 1.053
FG: 1.005

Cooled to 24.8C in about 50mins in ice bath. Was in a rush to doctors appointment, so had to quickly siphon to fermenter and pitch a little higher than preferred and only collected 12L (had to leave the rest ... but at the moment I'm not in it for drinking, but creating - go on, crucify me!)

Fermentation was as follows:
3 days @ 20C
transferred to
7 days @ 7C
then
2 days diacetyl rest @ 18C
All in the primary (currently don't have a secondary)

bottled with white sugar and left at room temp 24hrs, then transferred to 7C.

It has been 10 days since bottling (early I know).

Any insights? The sweetness and body have got me flummoxed! I use a digital cooking thermometer "Acu rite".
Is it that my measurement of the mash temperature could have been wrong? Should I omit the Munich? Either way though - FG of 1.005 suggests to me that it shouldn't be too sweet?

Argh! Please help!

Thanks

TC

 

[manticle]

1st three days is the most crucial for good temp control. A lager at 20 for 3 days may give some unwelcome flavours. You are better starting at 7, then raising towards 20 than the other way around.

 

[tcapach]

Is that likely to make it sweet though?

I'm not noticing any real off- or unwelcome flavours. In fact, it's pretty good apart from the slight sweetness.

 

[porky4776]

This might seem silly, but are you sure the saaz was 6.3% not 3.6%. Most of the saaz (czech) advertised with the sponsors is closer to the latter. This would explain the sweetness.

 

[tcapach]

6.3% is what the pack from my HBS said. It did seem a bit higher than I had read about, but I can't argue with the pack! (Maybe mis-labeled?)
Perhaps the hops were old and lost bitterness?

 

[Mayor of Mildura]

that is a heap of munich in a bo pils. Will contribute a malty sweetness. Pilsner malt only makes for a great beer.

Good point about hop age too. Do you know what year they are?

It could also be priming sugar. Give the bottles another 10 days and see how it goes.

 

[Frag_Dog]

A thought...

You said you mashed at 64.4C. How accurate is your thermometer? I know when I started, I thought my thermometer was decent. Turns out it was 5-7C + or - what it read.

 

[Pommy Matt]

that is a heap of munich in a bo pils. Will contribute a malty sweetness. Pilsner malt only makes for a great beer.

Good point about hop age too. Do you know what year they are?

It could also be priming sugar. Give the bottles another 10 days and see how it goes.

+1 to priming sugar - 7C is pretty cool, and 10 days isn't too long.

 

[tcapach]

A thought...

You said you mashed at 64.4C. How accurate is your thermometer? I know when I started, I thought my thermometer was decent. Turns out it was 5-7C + or - what it read.

That's why I mentioned my thermometer... perhaps I don't trust it. I haven't tested it to see how accurate it is - I will do before my next brew.

I will leave another couple of weeks and see what happens. Thanks for the input guys.

 

[Ross]

With your final gravity acheived I wouldn't have any worries about your mash temp being too high.
Grain bill is fine & predicted hop bitterness also.
So this leaves your hops - Are they supposed to be czech saaz? I've not heard of them at that high an AA before.
You need to find out what variety they are & what age they are & this may well give you the answer.

cheers Ross

 

[bradsbrew]

Hi team,

First AG and first post, so please go easy!

bottled with white sugar and left at room temp 24hrs, then transferred to 7C.

It has been 10 days since bottling (early I know).

Any insights? The sweetness and body have got me flummoxed!Argh! Please help!

Thanks

TC

I reckon thats your problem right there. What is the carbonation like? give it another month at 15 degrees and see how it compares.

 

[Nick JD]

Your IBUs even at 3.5%AA are okay for the style - not 35 but more like 25. Still shouldn't taste "sweet".

 

[felten]

Could you be picking up diacetyl?

I think Bradsbrew is onto it though, I wouldn't have thought they'd be carbed after 10days at 7c either.

 

[MHB]

Couple of points to think about
Your apparent attenuation is over 90%, from a yeast that the manufacture suggests will attenuate 72-76%. That is almost impossible if you mashed at around 64oC, on the face of it you would have to think the mash was quite cool. You need to check that thermometer.
20oC is way too hot for the yeast, again recommended is 9-13oC; there is a very real chance you are getting some esters, they can be fruity and sweet. If as you say you are new to AG and Lager brewing it would be a good idea to read up on the yeast before you use it YEAST STRAIN: 2001 Urquell Lager.
17% Munich is a lot of Munich for the style, thats going to contribute to the body and perhaps the perception of sweetness.
As mentioned the stated AA% of the hops is a concern, I would be asking some pretty hard questions of the supplier on exactly what you got.
Clearly the beer has attenuated very well, there really isnt any (or much) sugar left to ferment so its a fair bet that what you are tasting is a combination of too much Munich, esters from too hot a ferment, quite likely a lower bitterness than planed (just makes the rest stick out more) and immaturity.
Most Urquell recipes call for 95% Pilsner and around 5% Carapillis Budvar is 100% base malt, oh and adding a Whirlfloc tablet at 18 minutes is too early; you really will denature the Carrageenan try 5-10 from end of boil, more like 5 if you are slow chilling in the sink.
Plan your next recipe and brew better and definitely get that pitching temperature way down, I wouldnt pitch 2001 over 12oC (preferably cooler say 10oC) you do want a sizable pitch if you want 2001 to deliver 1.5x10^6 cells / mL /oP (1.053 is 13.25oP).
MHB

Slightly random thought (you know 1:24 AM and half cut and all that) when you say sweet, do you by chance mean Butterscotch?
M

 

[manticle]

Is that likely to make it sweet though?

Not sugary sweet but your description of 'sweet' may be something else (I can't taste the beer and people's descriptors and perceptions are often different - some confuse bitter and sour for example). Also a long day of judging strong Belgian ales at Vicbrew yesterday so it was hard to make sense. The high temp may have contributed something you perceive as sweet.

My vote would go with bradsbrew's suggestion as the likely culprit although the 'body' issue I'd put down to the munich (body isn't such a bad thing unless it's too 'chewy' though).

 

[tcapach]

Couple of points to think about
Your apparent attenuation is over 90%, from a yeast that the manufacture suggests will attenuate 72-76%. That is almost impossible if you mashed at around 64oC, on the face of it you would have to think the mash was quite cool. You need to check that thermometer.
20oC is way too hot for the yeast, again recommended is 9-13oC; there is a very real chance you are getting some esters, they can be fruity and sweet. If as you say you are new to AG and Lager brewing it would be a good idea to read up on the yeast before you use it YEAST STRAIN: 2001 Urquell Lager.
17% Munich is a lot of Munich for the style, that's going to contribute to the body and perhaps the perception of sweetness.
As mentioned the stated AA% of the hops is a concern, I would be asking some pretty hard questions of the supplier on exactly what you got.
Clearly the beer has attenuated very well, there really isn't any (or much) sugar left to ferment so it's a fair bet that what you are tasting is a combination of too much Munich, esters from too hot a ferment, quite likely a lower bitterness than planed (just makes the rest stick out more) and immaturity.
Most Urquell recipes call for 95% Pilsner and around 5% Carapillis Budvar is 100% base malt, oh and adding a Whirlfloc tablet at 18 minutes is too early; you really will denature the Carrageenan try 5-10 from end of boil, more like 5 if you are slow chilling in the sink.
Plan your next recipe and brew better and definitely get that pitching temperature way down, I wouldn't pitch 2001 over 12oC (preferably cooler say 10oC) you do want a sizable pitch if you want 2001 to deliver 1.5x10^6 cells / mL /oP (1.053 is 13.25oP).
MHB

Slightly random thought (you know 1:24 AM and half cut and all that) when you say sweet, do you by chance mean "Butterscotch"?
M

Thanks for your in-depth analysis!

I wasn't trying to clone Urquell, just trying my hand at a pils. I did want to pitch lower, but as I said - ran out of time which sucks... maybe I should have just put the lid on and pitched a couple of hours later when I got home?

Certainly not "butterscotch" - I don't think that I am tasting diacetyl?

I thought I planned reasonably well - I have been doing a lot of reading - which included somewhere something about getting the yeast going at 18C ish for a day or two then go to cooler temps (even though I know that it works best at cooler).

In my notes I have commented my surprise at the FG and attenuation...

Lots of learning! Part of the fun...

Cheers

 

[tcapach]

Could you be picking up diacetyl?

I think Bradsbrew is onto it though, I wouldn't have thought they'd be carbed after 10days at 7c either.

From my understanding (which is limited) I don't think it is diacetyl. The beer was definitely carbonated - perhaps not fully though.

I'll let you know how they get on in a couple of weeks...

 

[Pat Casey]

1053 to 1005, 90% apparent attenuation and the beer tastes sweet and has too much body? Sounds whacky.

The hops don't have anything to do with the sweetness, discount them. The proportion of Munich is somewhat high, but there's no caramel malts. The grain bill doesn't account for things. Funny fermentation flavours, don't know. Your fermentation regime was not ideal, but you don't taste any funny flavours.

I think instruments, measurements and mash thickness are the culprits.

How's this scenario? At nearly 5kg in 13 litres your mash is moderately thick and was difficult to mix properly. As a result the temperature distribution was uneven and you ended up measuring the temperature of a cold spot. The mash was hotter than what you measured, so the beer is too sweet and has too much body. As well, your hydrometer has a crack in it which has let liquid into it and it now gives low readings. The hydrometer has only recently been cracked and there was not enough liquid in it to distort your initial 1053 reading.

So, check your hydrometer in water. Does it read 1.000 at 20 degrees? You did degas your hydrometer samples and measure them at 20 degrees?

Next, how did you measure your 13 litres of mash water? Don't assume a plastic jug is accurate. One customer had a jug marked at 1 litre but it was actually 850 ml or so. You could have used less water than what you thought. For straight sided round vessels measure the volume with a ruler, pi r squared times the depth. Work out the volume per centimetre of depth and use a cheap stainless ruler as a dipstick.

Although I think your thermometer will be OK, check it to be sure. Measure the temp of a water and ice slurry, it should be zero. Measure the temp of boiling water, it should be 100 at sea level.

Pat
Absolute Homebrew
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[jasonharley]

If you have tasted Urqell from the bottle it is likely to taste radically different to fresh bol pils. Most Urqells (in the bottle) are oxidised to death by the time they get to aussie land..... fresh bol pils are a delicate paradox of slightly sweet malt and hoppyness ..... so i would say just enjoy it and maybe tweak the malt / hop balance next go around to your liking...... enjoy the best hobby on the planet .... homebrewin!!!!!

5 eyes

 

[MarkBastard]

If your hydro is accurate and it really did finish at 1.005 is there any chance you over primed or that bottle conditioning isn't far along?