What Makes Megaswill Just So Crap?

[mr brau]

After now 10 pages, perhaps this thread should be called "What makes homebrewers just so ignorant and self righteous?"

 

[razz]

After now 10 pages, perhaps this thread should be called "What makes homebrewers just so ignorant and self righteous?"

Our ability to make superior ale of course !

 

[Hutch]

After now 10 pages, perhaps this thread should be called "What makes homebrewers just so ignorant and self righteous?"

:angry:
After now 2.5 years of you being an AHB member, you've made a sum total of 12 posts on this forum - Very valuable contributor mr brau.
Do you have anything more constructive to add to this discussion, or is a broad insult easier to come up with?

 

[Tim F]

People drink what they do because thats what they prefer, not because they are too dumb to know better. Jeezus.

Mostly agree with you but not that point. A lot of people drink what they do ONLY because they don't know any better. Case in point being the vast majority of people on this board who would have happily guzzled down 'megaswill' for years before they realised there could be more to beer than just something cold and fizzy that gets you drunk.

 

[schooey]

Mostly agree with you but not that point. A lot of people drink what they do ONLY because they don't know any better. Case in point being the vast majority of people on this board who would have happily guzzled down 'megaswill' for years before they realised there could be more to beer than just something cold and fizzy that gets you drunk.

and there's probably a couple of hundred thousand wine snobs out there that think us craftbrewers drink beer, no matter how good, ONLY because we supposedly haven't discovered the refinement of wine yet..

 

[PostModern]

Mostly agree with you but not that point. A lot of people drink what they do ONLY because they don't know any better. Case in point being the vast majority of people on this board who would have happily guzzled down 'megaswill' for years before they realised there could be more to beer than just something cold and fizzy that gets you drunk.

Agreed. From my own past, I got into homebrew in the 80's to make beer "as good as VB or Melbourne". Nuts when I look back now, but that's not here not there. Having developed what I consider to be taste, I still occasionally have a look back on the range of Aussie "Draught" beers just to see how far I've come.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hi TB,

I think you're perfectly justified in defending the reputation and ability of the people you work with, and like you I agree that they do a miraculous job at producing a consistent product, regardless of what that product is (I'm talking about the Big volume stuff here).

So far there's been a lot of argument and rhetorical debate on this topic, however what is obviously missing is any REAL factual information about what actually MAKES this beer the way it is - this is what I believe the original topic was trying to explore!

There's plenty of speculation and opinions about hops/isohop, preservatives, adjuncts, sugars, etc. but what many of us would like to know is EXACTLY what they do to produce this type of beer. I'm not suggesting you lose your job by providing us with a photocopied recipe for VB (for want of an example), but I think a lot of myths would be debunked if you (or any others here that know THE FACTS) could enlighten us with what you know, under the relative anonymity of a public forum:

* Sugar
* Adjuncts and enzymes
* preservatives
* Mashing regime
* Fermentation temp and yeast strain(s) (that might get you into trouble!)
* Lagering duration/ temperature
* Blending
* Pre-packaging treatment (filtering, pasturisation, etc.)


Also, it's also been mentioned earlier that isohop is used in certain brews, though I'm not convinced this is as big a culprit as I once thought - please correct me if I'm wrong.
So, does anyone want to share what they actually know?

Hutch.

Only too happy to share - I need to be a little generic because the answers aren't the same across the spectrum of beers I help to make & because I really don't want to lose my job by giving away trade secrets.

I'm not sure if it will help though - there wont be any startling revelations and I imagine the information will both satisfy the curious and simultaneously confirm all the worst suspicions of those who knew it all along. But for what its worth, here are the things I know about brewing at a "mega" brewery

Malt - All out malt is from that evil purveyor of substandard product (joking guys no need for lawyers) Barret Burston. It is mostly a pale/lager malt designed for low maltiness & a higher level of dextrins per mash temp. Super low DMS pre-cursors. Every single truckload is visually inspected and comes with a full set of specifications so that mashing can be tailored to compensate for the grain being used today. We also get in BB crystal and Black Barley for those beers that need them.

Adjuncts - There are no starch adjuncts used. Only sugar adjuncts. The sugar all comes in the form of syrups. We use a few different sorts, predominantly sucrose and maltose syrups. But there are also a few specially tailored syrups that are a combination of those two things and dextrins. The different syrups are used to tailor fermentability profiles. For the majority of the brews, the sugars would make up somewhere between 15 & 20% of the fermentables. At least one of the beers has a much higher proportion of sugar... but to balance that, we also make at least two no adjunct beers (ie All Grain) Bet you can't guess which ones are which.

Mashing - Beers are usually step mashed with an L:G of between 2.5 & 3. Temp controlled Mash Tun. Stand times are mostly quite a lot shorter than a homebrewer would use - but you have to remember that mashing in and transfer times take a while when you are talking about a 17,000kg grist. So they all add up. Then again, one of our beers has a 120min sach rest.... The temps overall are probably a lot higher than HB temps would be, but we are shooting for a much more dextrinous wort than a homebrewer would normally be looking for. Standard mash additions of Gypsum/Salt/Cal Chloride/Mag Sulphate etc are made as appropriate for the brew.

Lauter/sparge - Mash is transferred after a partial mashout (not high enough to stop enzyme activity, but enough to slow it down a lot) to a bloody great big lauter tun, where it is sparged over around 120mins. Continuous sparge, probably best described as a "flood" sparge rather than a "fly". We would be collecting around about 100,000L of wort from each batch mostly in the 13-18 plato range.

Boil/hopping - Boils are usually 60min and dependent on the brew either bittering or aroma hops might be added in pellet form. The bittering hops if they are added are POR and the aromas will be a Euro Noble hop. Even when bittering hops are added - they aren't the primary source of bittering. It will always be mostly ISO extract of one form or another. But where it is desirable to have an actual hop character to the beer, they are used. Aromas though... don't talk to me about the bastards..... pallets and pallets of pellets I have to lug around the place . Of course during the whole process, in-line meters are monitoring every possible volume, temp, level, attribute of the wort etc etc that you could possibly think of, and probably more. Post boil samples are taken for among other things pH, tint (some brewers caramel is sometimes added to adjust colour) & of course gravity. Our spec for the gravity allows us a little leeway - we need to get it within .001 SG -we can add cut water if we are a little high, but too low means adjusting the next brew. It takes 2-5 brews to fill a fermentor, so the blending starts at wort production, this brew a little low, next one is made a little stronger. The fermentors will be accurate to the 4th decimal place of SG by the time we are done.

Whirlpool and Chill - aren't exciting, they are just a whirlpool vessel and a whacking great plate chiller

We run two brewhouses simultaneously and our wort production complex is able to produce 18-20 brews/24hrs at around 120,000L per brew. At the risk of making it absolutely clear to my employers who they should sack if they dont like this thread, the Wort Production Complex is where I spend my time, about as far away from being in charge of anything as its possible to get

Enzymes - Yep. Every brew gets a bit of a shot of a gluconase enzyme to help with lautering. About 1L in the 40,000+L of mash. It does its job and make things go faster. "other" enzymes are used to make low carb beers low carb, but not really for anything else.

Fermentation/Yeast - Yeasts are all either Proprietary strains that were mostly developed by the brewery over the last hundred years or so, came with the acquisition of a beer brand, or are the official yeast of a BUL beer. The strains for the local brews are have been cultured to perform quickly and cleanly at higher than normal "lager" brewing temps. All the major brands are lagers no matter what the label says. I wont do the actual temps thing - but suffice it to say, for lagers fermentations are hot and fast. Fermentation takes around a week starting out quite low and free rising to its maximum before being held there to finish, beers are then chilled back for a couple of days to allow the yeast to settle, then they are tapped off the fermentor, through centrifuges to get rid of almost all the yeast and put into cold storage for a week or three. I don't believe that we use a fining agent in the fermentors now that we have centrifuges - we used to use isinglass, but I dont think we do anymore. I will call a fermentation guy to check and update here if we do. Hop extract for bittering is added to the beer during transfer to the storage tanks.

Blending - Absolutely. The aim is to hit the quality targets into the bright beer tanks. So fermentors and storage tanks will be analyzed and tasted numerous times. High will be blended with low and visa versa, out of spec might be dribbled into batches that have room to move etc etc. Brands aren't mixed, but for instance an export version might get downgraded if it cant be made to hit its (much tighter) specs. If beer is unblendably out of spec... it goes down the drain. Takes a couple of days to pour nearly a million litres of beer down the sink, I've watched it happen.

Preservatives/process aides etc - Some. The only actual preservatives that I have seen put into beer are some Ascorbic Acid and some Sodium Metabisulphite - there might I suppose be others, but not that I am aware of. In some beers anti haze enzymes are added. Mainly the ones that are going overseas on a boat, the physical rocking back and forwards on the boat causes a haze to occur in the bottle. Pre-filtering PVPP or Silica Gel is added to control chill haze, I am pretty sure its used for all beers these days. Those are filtered out again of course so they are process aides rather than ingredients.

Filtering - is done via diatomaceous earth filters (candle) which take out yeast and the PVPP or Silica gel. Carbonation and dilution to sale strength happens during the transfer/filter process from Storage to Bright tanks. Final adjustment dosing of hop extract and caramel happens just prior to the filter. This is adjusted during the filter run so that the final bright tank levels are to spec. Bright beers are monitored for carbonation etc and stored at around -1C till they are required by packaging.

Packaging - Cans and bottles are filled on fancy arsed Krones steam strerilizing fillers, and all but the beers labelled "cold filtered" are pasturised in tunnel pasturisers. The cold filtered ones are sterile filtered instead. Beers for kegging are flash pasturised on the way to the kegging plant.

And thats it .... so in there is all the merit and all the bad you care to find. If you think the beers are great, thats why - if you think they are fine examples of beers you don't really care for, thats why - if you think they are crap.... then in there somewhere is the reason why.

You can figure out which bits you think are "responsible" - but it wont be any single one of them - it will still end up being the fact that the beers are carefully and deliberately brewed to taste the way they do, and you just don't like it. The exact same process could be used to brew a beer you love, it just isn't thats all.

At least now you'll know rather than just suspect. At the risk of perpetuating an already overly long thread... I'll answer specific questions (if I can) if people want me to.

Had my favourite beer tonight - Reissdorf Kolsch - compared to that stuff, nearly everything is crap

Thirsty

 

[Duff]

Very interesting post Thirsty. Thanks.

Only too happy to share...

Adjuncts - Only sugar adjuncts. The sugar all comes in the form of syrups.

Are these available to the homebrewer? If so, where?

Cheers.

 

[kabooby]

Every day I log on to see a few more pages of the same argument.

I know I shouldnt read it but I just cant help myself. Its like a drug

Maybe by next week we will have a "What Makes Megaswill Just So Crap II" thread :unsure:

Kabooby

I might add that this thread has generally been about aussie megaswill. Most beer consuming countries produce megaswill, and I would not say that there beer is much better. Anyone fancy a Budweiser h34r:

Now lets all have a group hug

 

[Stuster]

Very informative, Thirsty Boy. One question about the sugar syrup, just wondering when in the process it's added in?

 

[floppinab]

Thirsty, your post was absolutely fantastic. Given some have handed directly and indirectly a fair bit of crap (whoops that word again), you've gone above and beyond to give those that wanted it more detail than they probably deserve. I thought you'd given us more than enough in your first post, and others that you have given us here in the past.
Thanks

 

[Duff]

Very informative, Thirsty Boy. One question about the sugar syrup, just wondering when in the process it's added in?

I was thinking the same Stuster. I remember a post recently from Gough who mentioned they add theirs about 2 - 3 days into primary for their Tripel, etc. Have a Golden Strong I was thinking of doing the same way shortly.

 

[sponge]

Cheers Thirsty Boy



Sponge

 

[beersom]

No, there is no point in telling people facts.... where is this category in the BJCP style guidelines? Must be there if it's a recognised style worthy of recognition in a competition.

BJCP is a homebrew/amateur ONLY style guidline... it is, as far as I am aware, not used by ANY pro comp anywhere in the world.
The BJCP is a most welcome part of the entire brewing community but it is not the definitive guide, without flaw or without room for improvement. This is why they do updates etc. BJCP is a good basis for comp guidelines that is a reflection of the beer world (pro and amateur) not a mirror image.

As far as the Aussie Mega breweries competing against only themselves in these classes.... well as far as I can recall they haven't done too well competing against themselves the last few years.
2008
Gold Anchor Ice
Asia Pacific Breweries Limited
Singapore, Singapore
Silver Imperial
Cerveceria Hondurea, S.A. de C.V.
San Pedro Sala, Honduras
Bronze Pacea Tropical Extra
Cervecera Boliviana Nacional S.A.
La Paz, Bolivia
2006
Gold: Norte Blanca, Cerveceria y Malteria Quilmes, Quilmes, Argentina
Silver: Kingfisher, Shepherd Neame Ltd, Faversham, England
Bronze: Bohemia Especial, Cerveceria Nacional Dominicana, Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
2004
Gold: Premium, Compaia Cervecera de Nicaragua, Managua, Nicaragua
Silver: Myanmar Beer, Myanmar Brewery Ltd., Yangon, Myanmar
Bronze: Vailima Special Export Lager, Samoa Breweries Ltd., Apia, Samoa
2002
Gold Southern Cross Export, Honolulu Brewing Company, LLC., Honolulu, HI
Silver Premium Cia. Cervecera de Nicaragua, Managua, Nicaragua
Bronze Double Happiness Beer, Guangzhou Brewery, Guangzhou, China
2000
Gold Southwark Bitter Lion-Nathan, Lidcombe, Australia
No silver awarded
Bronze Fiji Bitter Carlton Brewery Fiji Ltd., Walubay, Suva, Fiji

But they have picked up many awards in other classes in that time.

As far as their quality goes.... well
Subjectively- They are brewers of very high standard that acheive remarkable results of consistant quality of the desired end product using the best means to acheive that goal.
Objectively- They are the producers (note I do not use the term brewers) of remarkably bland products devoid of character and without trace of gastronomic experience.

The actual brewers themselves are generally VERY talented.... VERY talented. That is one of the reasons why they are able to meet standard time and time again. If given the green light to produce an IPA or APA in true manner I am sure that Fosters Yatala plant would produce one hell of a beer. But as we know this is not the point of these companies (Fosters has Matilda Bay for this) The point of these companies is to produce quick and inoffensive products for the largest population percentage possible.

It is very much like many have stated earlier comparing McDonalds to a fine restaurant, only I prefer a cheese analogy.
Kraft singles are bland and inoffensive and fill a void for a quick and easy sanga.... A fine leiscester is a flavourfull cheese for the moments when a gastronomic experience is desired.

In short -
Mega beers = very well made, economically made, bland mass product.
Craft (pro and amatuer)beers = an experience!!!!

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Thirsty Boy,

Your boss just called. He wants to see you in his office first thing Monday morning...

h34r:

 

[Weizguy]

most excellent feedback, Thirsty. Well done

You can figure out which bits you think are "responsible" - but it wont be any single one of them - it will still end up being the fact that the beers are carefully and deliberately brewed to taste the way they do, and you just don't like it. The exact same process could be used to brew a beer you love, it just isn't thats all.

I think that this is the point being made by both sides. It's about the efficiency of process, leading to the maximum $$ return to investors and the minimum product that will be acceptable to consumers (of which there is obviously a helluva lot of willing or even obsessive individuals).

At least now you'll know rather than just suspect. At the risk of perpetuating an already overly long thread... I'll answer specific questions (if I can) if people want me to.

"Respect" for your time and input.

People need to remember that it's not just the brewery that you work in, but all large breweries use a similar quality control/ measuring/ blending/ intensive/ all-encompassing process.

Even the German breweries, as I believe I have mentioned/ heard-mentioned before, do NOT have to comply with the Reinheitsgebot for product brewed for export.

Les the not-so-anal-now Weizguy.

 

[PostModern]

Good on you TB. It's always good to hear this sort of thing first hand, from someone inside the facility.

I think I found the reasons in your list that I don't like the beer you guys make as much as the stuff we amateurs make:

It is mostly a pale/lager malt designed for low maltiness & a higher level of dextrins per mash temp.

I like maltiness in malt.

and

Filtering - is done via diatomaceous earth filters

Filtering really kills a beer, imvho, but I completely understand why it's required for mega-production of mega-beers.

Thanks again for taking the time to post that great summary of the megalager manufacturing process.

 

[geoffi]

Thirsty Boy...excellent explanation of what goes on in the 'dark satanic mills'.

While we, the self-appointed taste Polizei, might be scornful of the 'quality' of the product, we have to acknowledge that these guys are masters of 'quality control'. They know what product sells, and they know how to reproduce that product exactly time after time. On the micro scale, I (and I guess everybody else here) am trying to achieve control and consistency, especially with our 'house' brews that we do again and again.

 

[Hutch]

Awesome reply Thirsty - exactly what I was hoping for. Perhaps one of the best posts I've read on the forum to date.
The volumes of wort you mention, and the nett output are simply mind-boggling (and all to within .001 SG!).
...also goes a long way to explain the smell throughout all of Abbotsford/Studley Park on some days!
Cheers :icon_cheers:
Hutch.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

...also goes a long way to explain the smell throughout all of Abbotsford/Studley Park on some days!

Wonderful, isn't it? To my mind, it's why that part of the Yarra is some of the most popular bike track in the state...