What Is Food Grade Standard?

[Desert Brewer]

I have just started doing full wort boils (DME +Grains+ Hops) and was investigating the various methods of chilling - i have opted for the "no chill in a cube method" seems perfectly logical to me. As i have only chilled two brews this way i cant comment on how the beer is, as they are both still fermenting away.

A friend of mine raised the point that "you shouldnt be putting hot wort with a ph of about 5 (roughly 5 times more acidic than water) into plastic or polywhateveritis!" His main concern being the breakdown of the containers structure/compounds, potentially releasing nasties into my beer, I said "that it was food grade so it should be OK". He still remained sceptical about the process and suggested that i invest in an Immersion Chiller - we argued about water usage etc and came to no conclusion.

My question - What is the, or is there, an Australian Standard for a maximum liquid temperature and/or maximum ph of that liquid that can be put into a poly/plastic "food grade" container?

I understand that alot of people are using the no chill method and speak very highly of it, pretty much why i used it myself, that and i had all the equipment and i am a bit concious about excess water usage.

But i made the assumption that "food grade" ploy/plastic meant OK for hot acidic wort. Can anyone clarify or point me to a relevant thread or article.

Thanks.

 

[PostModern]

HDPE (recycle code 2)
http://www.ides.com/resources/plastic-recycling-codes.asp

Things like stewed fruit is hot packed in HDPE. It doesn't go plastic (ie leach plasticisers) at temps below boiling. If it does, the plasticiser used is citric acid. Not going to kill you.

Proceed!

 

[Adamt]

There's no specific legal definition for "food grade plastic", but the general idea is food grade plastic should not leach plasticisers or anything nasty into hot food products stored in them. HDPE does not contain any harmful plasticisers and is safe up to 110-120C.

 

[Darren]

Desert Brewer,

Food grade plastic refers to ambient temperature water. Just because "you can't taste it" or "haven't died yet" doesn't mean its safe to put hot acidic wort into these "food grade" containers.

Anthing above 80C and you are kidding yourself (and others) if you claim safety. Besides the fact that you MAY be leaching toxins from the plastic, if the seams of your cube burst whilst you or friends family are in close proximity, third degree burns are a certainty (slow and painful death).

I would suggest a counterflow or plate chiller for piece of mind.

cheers

Darren

 

[PostModern]

Desert Brewer,

Food grade plastic refers to ambient temperature water. Just because "you can't taste it" or "haven't died yet" doesn't mean its safe to put hot acidic wort into these "food grade" containers.

Anthing above 80C and you are kidding yourself (and others) if you claim safety. Besides the fact that you MAY be leaching toxins from the plastic, if the seams of your cube burst whilst you or friends family are in close proximity, third degree burns are a certainty (slow and painful death).

I would suggest a counterflow or plate chiller for piece of mind.

cheers

Darren

Go away troll.

 

[pdilley]

Now here is what I have from books on brewing (fermenting liquid) and books on fermenting foods. Books on brewijg, LHBSs and forums like this everyone says Food Grade plastic is fine to use. Fermenting food books say dont use plastic even if it says Food Grade as it still leeches out. Even the FDA says food grade plastic leeches out but at levels they dont think will harm us. So its up to you who you wish to believe. In the plastic industry Food Grade simply means no recyclables are used to manufacture the new plastic as you need to trace which ingredients are actually in the plastic formulation.

I have only two food grade plastic fermenters used only as primaries and bottling vessels. Any and all long term aging or contact I do exclusively in glass. Plastic will not last as long. A 60 litre plastic food grade will set you back about $75. A glass italian 54 litre demijohn will set you back about $100. Provided you dont break them, glass demis last a lifetime and hand me downs to your kids. Plastic if used frequently can get to the point you replace it at 2-3 year cycles.

All plastics continually off gas over their lifetimes so eventually all plastics will
harden and brittle with age.

My Plastic: 30 litre, 60 litre
My Glass: 54 litre, 34 litre, 34 litre, 25 litre, 5 litre, 5 litre, 5 litre, 5 litre

I have bottles in both ~1-2 years max i think PET is ok, everything else is glass as my choice.

Id even have crockery if it werent so costly for the good german stuff.

PS im looking at adding another 12 glass demijohns so thats how much I prefer them over plastic. Even if you think plastic is 100% safe you cant argue that glass although a little bitmore expensive is a lot cheaper in the long run as you dont replace them as often as plastic, if at all.

Now that said, im not a prude, ill probably get one plastic no chill container just to try the method at least once

 

[QldKev]

What Is Food Grade Standard?

HTFU, and go pick some flowers or something!!!!!

 

[Desert Brewer]

Thanks, seems very much a personel choice, i will proceed with the cube for a number of reasons at this point in time, $$$ being the main, although would be great to get a couple of glass demijohns and some efficient chilling equipment.

I can remember a campaign in this country not so long ago that recommended that we shower, bath, roll around in and spray towns in substance called Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane to get rid of little nasties such as mossies and head lice, that didnt work out so well for alot of people - but the government reakons that it was safe, particularly the QLD government! Im not sure what its done for the gene pool in QLD? Dont think it hardened it up though! Anyway.................

Thanks for the Info.

 

[3G]

Out of interest has anyone filled a newish cube with boiling water and left to cool then tasted it?

 

[NickB]

Someone did it a while back (forget who sorry) and reported a distinct plastic taste from the first two or so attempts with a new cube. I would recommend filling new cubes with hot water and napisan/PBW a few times before using them for no chill brewing. I however now have the luxury of brewing with tank water and using an immersion chiller with the waste water back into the tank...Joy!


Cheers

 

[Desert Brewer]

Never a newish one. But i have done plenty of remote field work where you have water in similar containers for upto 3 -4 weeks.They are exposed to sunlight, big temperature variations (20c -43c) etc, the first 80 -100 litres tastes OK, but after about 3 -4 days the water taste goes progressivley downhill. This could be for numerous reasons, but the water quality was never really great to begin with - but it got worse with time albeit in pretty harsh conditions.

Not ideal test conditions for what we are trying to achieve with beer - but the point being the water tasted worse once it had been in the cube for a while.

I need to get a new cube - so i will do the test - if someone hasnt already.

 

[NickB]

I find that if I leave water in a clear bottle at room temp for more than 24 hours it tastes like crap too, so that may not be the fault of the cube, maybe just the dissolved oxygen in the water coming out. Water stagnates at some point after it stops flowing, so this could be the cause in this case.


Cheers

 

[buttersd70]

Someone did it a while back (forget who sorry) and reported a distinct plastic taste from the first two or so attempts with a new cube. I would recommend filling new cubes with hot water and napisan/PBW a few times before using them for no chill brewing. I however now have the luxury of brewing with tank water and using an immersion chiller with the waste water back into the tank...Joy!


Cheers

From memory I think it was TrevC (but might be wrong). What I do remember, though, is that the tasting was done blind by his swmbo; after (I think) the third filling, she couldn't pick the difference between boiling water chilled in the cube, and boiled water cooled in a glass flask.

Edit: After reading the actual thread posted by Boston, it would seem that my memory is pretty dodgy.....probably all those plasticisers I've been ingesting. :lol:

 

[NickB]

Fair enough, TrevC does jog my memory. Was quoting from my (badly distorted) mind, so was bound to get it wrong! Will leave those of you not 12 beers into a brew-day to it.

Cheers

 

[Frank]

TrevC's kitchen taste test.

 

[QldKev]

I can remember a campaign in this country not so long ago that recommended that we shower, bath, roll around in and spray towns in substance called Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane to get rid of little nasties such as mossies and head lice, that didnt work out so well for alot of people - but the government reakons that it was safe, particularly the QLD government! Im not sure what its done for the gene pool in QLD? Dont think it hardened it up though! Anyway.................

Thanks for the Info.

DDT, not so long ago??? was about 35 years ago for what I'm told, I know it was a total ban in 1987, but as far as gene pool goes most those weird ones headed away, most probably in the shity weather climates down south.. Most Queenslanders have been here less than 5 years, including myself. I would be more worried about the chemicals used around the home today, some a very potent mix for cancer causing agents.. As far as no-chill in a jerry can, do you drink water that has been in a plastic bottle for months?


EDIT: I should add, are you tasting water from the jerry can, or beer... maybe do not put a lager as the first one or two brews in a new jerry can, but a fuller body beer the difference may not really be noticeable...

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

As some of you guys have decided to run off and pick flowers, there is some difference in cubes

You can several types

1 Basic...a basic cube
2 Dangerous Goods cube...has a stamp on it to show its good for fuel or posions
3 Potable water grade...sometimes has an inner skin it the cube...usually Blue on the outside

 

[Desert Brewer]

Thanks for the link Boston, pretty much what i assumed. Has anyone taken it to the next step and had that hot water from the cube tested ? I have a friend who is a hydrologist - pretty sure hes got the gear to do this sort of testing, or knows someone who does. I have been meaning to get him to do a water profile on our local H2O, could be the time.

I can here some of you saying "why bother!" and maybe your right, but the point about the DDT was that it was OK at the time and not so many years down the track they found it be very bloody nasty, with a know half life of 50 years, so after 100 years of being in the environment the boffins and governments are not sure what happens to it - what it becomes, what it affects etc. Be interesting to know the health state of the kiddies that had their head lice treated 35+ years ago.

Im not suggesting that the potential chemical release from a cube that has had hot wort added is in any way up there with the severity of DDT. I know i would have some piece of mind if there was some food authority out there saying its fine, someone else other than a retailer or manufacturer.

Yes, i do put other nasties into my body that are probably alot more harmful than any residue derived from a cube, but thats my choice. It just dosnt sit well with me that we assume that food grade is OK without any real definition out there or any authorative testing done on these cubes uses, because they have alot of different uses.

Having said that im planning to "no chill" a brew in a cube later today, as i have no other means.

I will see how i go with the water testing.

Cheers.

 

[Bribie G]

HDPE (recycle code 2)
http://www.ides.com/resources/plastic-recycling-codes.asp

Things like stewed fruit is hot packed in HDPE. It doesn't go plastic (ie leach plasticisers) at temps below boiling. If it does, the plasticiser used is citric acid. Not going to kill you.

Proceed!

Buy my apricots like that all the time. On topic I made four mini cubes using brand new 5L HDPE containers from Bunnings. Before use I washed them out first, bleached them and then rinsed with boiling water, and then filled them from a standard size boil. That was in (consults red book of brewing) January 13th. I have been using them in partials and emptied the last one on Tuesday. Still sweet as the day I made it and no off flavours at all.

PS I'd ignored the troll but seem to be seeing his posts again, will re ignore <_<

 

[pdilley]

Don't run off an pick the flowers. Save them and set up a few bee keeping boxes and let the bees have at em. Then harvest your 100kg or more of honey and join us on the Non-beer forum where we brew up some tasty Mead.

FWIW I see the same stamped plastic symbols, HDPE etc, as on the bottom of our LHBS plastic fermenters as on plastic rubbish bins sold at Bunnings

Cheers,
Brewer Pete