What Is Food Grade Standard?

[hairyson]

I have access to the Australian Standards, unfortunately I can't repost them to public forums, but I can make some comments.

The two standards that I can see that relate to food grade containers are AS 2070:1999 (Plastics materials for food contact use) and AS 4020:2005 (Testing of products for use in contact with drinking water). [If there are others let me know].

AS 2070 is the standard specifying how materials used in the construction of plastic containers have to be identified and controlled, and refers directly to one of two sets of regulations:
(i) the US FDA Code of Federal Regulations Title 21, parts 170-199 (it's online at http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassem...i?title=200221).
(ii) European Commission Directives 89/109/EEC (Framework Directive) and 90/128/EEC and their subsequent amendments or revisions, including 82/711/EEC and 85/572/EEC (haven't looked it up).

AS 4020 describes the testing required for products in contact with drinking water (but states it may be used for other types of water... i.e. no info on alkaline/acidic liquids). The standard recognises cold water tests (<40C), hot water tests (40--80C for products designed for use in such situations) and, maximum holding temp tests (40--100C) at which the product is held in contact with (hot) water for an extended period, e.g. several hours, for those products designed to hold very hot water.

The manufacturer decides which temp range to test at depending on the intended use of the product. In other words, just because a product meets this standard, does not mean it has been tested at anything above 40C, though they do have to report on which test they performed, just not sure where that info is published.

The AS 4020 standard specifies tests for: taste, appearance, turbidity, growth of aquatic micro-organisms, cytotoxicity (poisonous to cells), metals in leachate, mutagenic activity (causes genetic changes to bacteria under the conditions of test), but not volatile organic compounds (VOC), which may be the real issue in regards to health. .

So... the manufacturer's test report has info on the specifics of the tests, including operating temperatures, but I don't know how to get those. Perhaps the MSDS lists some of this info?

Here's an online paper on the compounds causing taste-and-odour effects in drinking water: http://www2.oakland.edu/chemistry/docs/Tomboulian.pdf


Ben

 

[blackbock]

What I find amazing about this topic is that everyone here is speculating about what is, and what is not safe to do.

What I would like to see is some real scientific examinations of NC wort cooled slowly over a day or so in HDPE containers vs wort made by the traditional chiller method at home. There must be someone on this forum who has access to the equipment and knowledge needed to perform such an analysis!

To my mind a taste test carried out by someone in their kitchen as to the 'plastic taste' of water proves nothing.

Once the results are out we could at least have some evidence to support the argument one way or the other.

 

[hairyson]

It's not too difficult to imagine that we could get this done, but I think the hardest thing would be to decide what exactly we'd test for.

A 'real scientific examination' would require construction of a test case, and some analytical machinery. What would that test be, to our satisfaction? What exactly would we want tested? How do you define quality of water? From the 'Tomboulian' report linked above, there are 29 organic chemical compounds that are recognised as potential leachates from Polyethylene, HDPE, and PEX. Each of these in isolation may have some effect on the quality and safety of the beer. Which of these are most important, and how do they affect our health, and at what concentrations are they hazardous? Here's a snippet from that paper (`organoleptic' means taste and odour type effects):

Unfortunately, organoleptic properties and/or health effects data for many of the compounds used in complex material formulations are not known or not generally available.

blackbock maybe you could research the chemicals you want tested?

Then, once we've got that settled, to test for these we would need something like a gas or liquid chromatograph with a Mass Spectrometer detector. Most universities have these, maybe someone here is a chem student?

 

[flattop]

Hmm just cubed my biab into a new jerry... wish i had rinsed it with hot water a few times.... i just starsaned it... That said it didn't have any noticeable odor....

 

[blackbock]

What would that test be, to our satisfaction? What exactly would we want tested? How do you define quality of water? From the 'Tomboulian' report linked above, there are 29 organic chemical compounds that are recognised as potential leachates from Polyethylene, HDPE, and PEX. Each of these in isolation may have some effect on the quality and safety of the beer. Which of these are most important, and how do they affect our health, and at what concentrations are they hazardous? Here's a snippet from that paper (`organoleptic' means taste and odour type effects):

blackbock maybe you could research the chemicals you want tested?

Then, once we've got that settled, to test for these we would need something like a gas or liquid chromatograph with a Mass Spectrometer detector. Most universities have these, maybe someone here is a chem student?

Firstly I am not a scientist and there would be any number of people more qualified to determine what such a test should be than I, however there are two separate issues as I see it relating to NC:

1. The chemical leachate effect from use of plastic containers compared to a control

2. The microbiological content of NC wort compared to chilled wort created in a home-brew situation. It would be unfair to compare to a large-scale commercially brewed wort for example. Of course a clean result here wouldn't necessarily prove that it is safe, but an elevated positive result for dangerous microbes might indicate cause for concern.

I would not like to draw conclusions on the potential danger of any chemical leached from the plastic, but it would be very interesting to know which ones, and at what level they are present.

That said, I NC on a regular basis as well :icon_cheers:

 

[flattop]

Hell i'm gonna die of something anyway may as well be drunk....

 

[Darren]

Go away troll.

Troll hey!!,

You ever seen the result of third degree burns mate??

How many guys here who are looking to get into all-grain cant afford to buy genuine HOT WORT SAFE cubes? What will be the "side effects" of buying a sub-standard cube??. Perhaps, when someone does cause serious injury you (or Dane) will accept responsibility?

cheers

Darren

PS: How you ever became a moderator of this forum is beyond me.

 

[haysie]

here we go again>>>>>>>>> being beaten down by moderators. That post(troll) was off topic, inflammatory and should have been recalled. Good for the goose good for the.........

 

[smollocks]

genuine HOT WORT SAFE cubes

I believe that's the topic under discussion - what cube exactly is genuinely safe for hot wort? If you can answer that it would be helpful to know.

 

[RdeVjun]

For a while I thought this thread was unresponsive to resuscitation- glad to see it still shows some signs of being sensible and responsive as there's actually been some interesting discussion.
Think someone's perhaps seen too much telly or perhaps struggled mentally with assessing the risk of papercuts from leaflets in the mailbox. Here's an interesting tale, I remember, back before I brewed something they call beer, just minding my own business and browsing the water container section of my local hardware wondering, just what is all this "Genuine Hot Wort- Safe" shenanigans plastered everywhere, what's all this "Hot Wort" rubbish, what's "Wort- Secure (tm)" and what's it got to do with plain old water containers? Had me stumped. Totally. But now I understand and have been enlightened- its just so obvious now! Can't you see? Sheesh, I don't know what backward rock you guys have been hiding under...

 

[flattop]

I'm over this, maybe i'll start to buy beer again.....

 

[PostModern]

Troll hey!!,

You ever seen the result of third degree burns mate??

How many guys here who are looking to get into all-grain cant afford to buy genuine HOT WORT SAFE cubes? What will be the "side effects" of buying a sub-standard cube??. Perhaps, when someone does cause serious injury you (or Dane) will accept responsibility?

cheers

Darren

PS: How you ever became a moderator of this forum is beyond me.

If you can't afford a cube, don't use the method. Exploding cubes creating a risk is a ridiculous argument. It would take a combination of the most unlikely events and most unsuitable containers for there to even be a remote chance of this. Ask the wort pack manufacturers how many cubes they've seen split, after hundreds of thousands of cubes produced, I have not heard of one case of an exploding cube, apart from infected cooled cubes, and they rupture just enough to release pressure, not explode. When hot wort is put in the cube, it is already at its maximum volume. As it cools, it contracts.

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet attacking this method, like a dog with a bone. I don't know what your motivation is, but I'll make this deal with you now. If one brewer who properly sanitises his cubes and uses a suitable vessel, ie those similar or identical to commercial wort packs (<$15 if you know where to look, cheap as one smack pack of Wyeast), either dies of botulism or is burnt by wort exploding from a hot cube, I'll quit as a AHB moderator and recommend you as my replacement.

 

[RdeVjun]

Exploding cubes creating a risk is a ridiculous argument.

Thanks PM for putting it clearly, that's precisely the point of my particularly ironic post. I personally assess the risk as extremely low, and would guess that its unheard-of in living, or even documented memory. I'll stand corrected though, so go for it.
Please stop wasting our time, there's an interesting discussion going on over at K/E regarding stout and another yeast.

 

[Desert Brewer]

I thought i asked a fairly legitimate question and i got some good respones that i am happy with and i can now investigate the matter further - thankyou to those who supplied the good info, i may get back with some test results.

What i didnt expect was being told to HTFU and someone suggesting that i have been living under rocks, which i think is a bit rich coming from a pair of Qlders - kinda makes me think that the DDT analogy i used earlier wasnt to far from the mark.

But he is right, there are plenty of rocks out here in Central Australia (and ive looked under a few of them) where anything that has some sort of speaciality purpose that doesnt have to do with Tourism, Mining or the cow industry has to come from somewhere else, i dont have the luxury of being within the vicinity of a major centre. Having said that, Alice Springs is a very well stocked little town, and where for a lot of people nessecity is the mother of invention, myself included. But there are somethings you just cant buy locally and that equals a freight bill ontop of already increasingly expensive hobby. I have never seen a water container marked "Wort Safe". I was just asking the question.

I think if you fellas are squabaling online you probably need to unplug from your PC and go and mind your own buisiness in the shed and do something constructive.

Cheers,

 

[flattop]

Problem is DB you touched on an already contentious issue.
No one has seen any short term side effects of hot cubing, no-one here seems to know the long term side effects.
The science just doesn't seem to be there one way or the other.
Plasticisers may leech, they may not it's a risk you may need to decide for yourself.

I'm sure no one new about Asbestos in the start but on the flip side we all use petrol even if the exhaust is bad for us...

In the end we all drink beer so we are stuffing our livers anyhow....

 

[Desert Brewer]

My point exactly flattop, thats why i asked the question.

As someone mentioned earleir in the thread, maybe we should put our heads togeather and work out some parameters for an legitimate test/trail. Open to suggestions and willing to help where possible.

Cheers.

 

[RdeVjun]

I'm very sorry, my earlier sarcastic comments digressed a meaningful discussion into largely undesired territory. A thousand pardons- the trolls should never be fed and let this be a lesson to those who do...

Back on Topic. Yes, there would be some _different_ risks involved in NC as opposed to some other methods of handling hot wort, but I'd hazard a guess that food manufacturers whose processes incorporate handling of heated product would be cogniscent of this as well. Assuming that HDPE is the most common NC cube material, and would be the material I'd recommend, its prevalence in packaging already is interesting. HDPE- packed fruits (already mentioned) ring a bell along with anything else that has, I presume, to be packaged hot to minimise spoilage of sanitised product, even some tin cans are lined with it. Just because some firms choose HDPE for packaging doesn't mean its plain sailing for NC, but its worth noting.

One thing I have turned up:

According to The Green Guide, a website and magazine devoted to greener living and owned by the National Geographic Society, the safest plastics for repeated use in storing food are made from high-density polyethylene (HDPE, or plastic #2), low-density polyethylene (LDPE, or plastic #4) and polypropylene (PP, or plastic #5).

Source: thedailygreen.com

Most of the 'green' / 'natural' web resources say this sort of thing about plastic containers:

Safer Plastics by the Numbers
To avoid the most dangerous plastics, look at the number in the recycling triangle located on the bottom of the container.

Unsafe
1-Polyethylene Terephthalate (PET, PETE): Used in soft-drink and single-use water bottles. Can leak the heavy metal antimony.
3-Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC): Contains phthalates.
7-Other: This catch-all category includes bisphenol-A.

Safer
2-High-Density Polyethylene (HDPE)
4-Low-Density Polyethylene (LDPE)
5-Polypropylene (PP)

Source: care2.com. This usually overly- sensitive group of consumers haven't identified HDPE as a cause for concern yet, or it is the least concerning. There is a heap of resources about bisphenol-A (BPA) though, but AFAIK, this isn't an issue for HDPE. I'd also use this table as a guide for selecting materials for other items we use, although I'm not sure about the PET and antimony thing, I'm confident some of HBers will perhaps take exception to that. (Remember, its not my data and I haven't included it just to be a dick.)

Also, remember that even if HDPE is eliminated from the NC process, the stuff is just about everywhere already, from clothing to computer packaging to other foodstuffs, so just removing it from homebrewing may not achieve much if there is something sinister about it after all. It is basically ubiquitous and the annual market is about 30 million tonnes, but that doesn't mean we should be be totally trusting in it, the way some people were with DDT, for instance.

 

[Adamt]

I've still never found any proof that, or been told which, harmful plasticisers are used in the manufacture of HDPE used for blow moulding containers.

 

[br33zy]

I've still never found any proof that, or been told which, harmful plasticisers are used in the manufacture of HDPE used for blow moulding containers.

There's some leachate data for HDPE in the Tomboulian report linked above:

"Table 3 Chemicals leached from polyethylene, HDPE, PEX
Chemical leached CAS No. Source or primary use if additive Allowable limit or risk factor Potential health effects Odor (or taste) threshold Odor (or taste)
Bisphenol A 80-05-7 Fungicide Oral RfD 0.05 mg/kg/day Endocrine disruptor Medicinal"

Having read the above reports, I'm certain that even HDPE will leach at higher levels when filled with 90degree plus wort. I'm happy (for the moment) to be fermenting in it; but it doesn't look to be suitable for no-chill. Of course thats my choice - and everyone is free to make their choice.

 

[br33zy]

I've still never found any proof that, or been told which, harmful plasticisers are used in the manufacture of HDPE used for blow moulding containers.

There's some leachate data for HDPE in the Tomboulian report linked above:

"Table 3 Chemicals leached from polyethylene, HDPE, PEX
Chemical leached CAS No. Source or primary use if additive Allowable limit or risk factor Potential health effects Odor (or taste) threshold Odor (or taste)
Bisphenol A.........80-05-7...Fungicide Oral RfD.....................0.05 mg/kg/day....................Endocrine disruptor......Medicinal"

(Edit: formatting was a bit shit really)

Having read the above reports, I'm certain that even HDPE will leach at higher levels when filled with 90degree plus wort. I'm happy (for the moment) to be fermenting in it; but it doesn't look to be suitable for no-chill. Of course thats my choice - and everyone is free to make their choice.