What Has Or What Is Stopping You From Going All Grain?

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I got onboard because i was told about this site, then nick's stovetop thread did the rest.

$30 is a good starting place then invest in good scales etc.

There is only one good reason why you can't AG and that is you don't have access to heat or water!
 
THe last partial i did, i cold-steeped the grains for 20-odd hours to good effect, so that did cut down the time a bit.
 
For me it was always just the cash. Well, for a long time anyway. I was on extract brews for about 3 years, and it was only the fact that I won both my work and social footy tipping this year that gave me the cash that I could justify spending on the jump.

When you (and your family) are living paycheck-to-paycheck and making perfectly drinkable extract brews, $260+ on a (full-boil) solution is hard to justify.

+1 word up to AHB and the BIAB crews. Only 2 batches in (and only one at drinkable stage) but couldn't be happier with the process and result.
 
I'll add a reason why AG is harder to get into (also makes it easier in a way).

Pros of tins: no further equip req beyond K+K once you have a big pot. Loose ingredients can be purchased in any size (25g - 50g - 100g) packs and simply put in ziplocks and reused later. Doesn't jack the price up much. Spec grains can be steeped easy peasy and purchased in bulk, uncrushed and used as per need.

Cons of tins: Difficult to do small batches unless you have good sanitary ways of storing the tins, or use DME.

Con of doing small scale AG:
1. Just as time consuming as larger batches, so to do a small volume you end up asking if it was all worth it! (With extract its pretty linear, and you skip the mashing or can do it alongside the boil even).
2. Cost of ingredients and/or equipment. Yes, I've heard that you don't need to buy a mill, but how else do you get a good crush?! even with NickJD's method, min need coffee grinder. Else, get HBS to crush grain, that means you can't bulk buy or buy 25 kilo sacks, which actually ends up making AG expensive (buying crushed bagged recipes). I know I paid 18.50 for what was supposed to be 2.7 kilos but actually was 2.9+ kilos of grain this month. Even at 3 kilos, its more than 6 dollars a kilo and in ideal scenarios it should've netted me 14.5 litres of pitchable wort. That could be scaled to say 25 dollars (29.34, but lets say it gets cheaper due to bigger grain bill). at 25 dollars to the grain bill for a 23 litre batch + hops + whirlfloc/irish moss + gas used/electricity it is actually getting uneconomical. Especially beacause of the 25 dollars of grain. The alternative to get the same type of grain crush would be to buy a grain mill and thats $$$ - So, COST IS A REAL ISSUE WITH AG, one way or the other, it costs more. For people brewing 30-80 litre batches, its easy, the equipment quickly pays for itself in malt cost savings.
3. The kitchen mess you make doing stovetop mashes is always a reminder - TAKE IT OUTSIDE. That means more expensive gas + burner outlay. Possible workaround is using the barbecue... hmnn...

Pros of AG for small batches:
1. Can DO small batches (ignoring cost) without having to worry about sanitary storage of goop and LME etc.... quite a lot of freedom in this.

Thing is, a brewer just starting out AG would want to start off small with pilot batches, hopefully and learn the nuances before plunging into big ones (ppl are different, I know, well, this is me)
Also, some would like to keep it small scale anyway, not being a big beer guzzler means I also need to brew a lot less and its beer, not wine, it can only stay fresh for so long! + how much of the same can I drink, need variety. So, milling my own grain would get me over the line nicely, albeit the mill is going to push me down the 'slippery slope' a lot more than 20 dollars, even a coffee grinder costs, a lot less but does cost. Even then, if I buy 2 sacks of malt at bulk buys or even sack price to make my favourite beers and continue to buy spec malts fresh from HBS, at 3 kilos to get 15 litres of beer, that is about 17 brews, that malt will go really stale! Add to all this the hassle of blocking the kitchen up for a good 3-4 hours minimum for a measly 15 litres of wort not to mention the time :S Extracts can be boiled and hopped in 90 minutes, there is no sparge or mash involved and if there is, it can be done alongside, hops can be boiled with the extract. Much shorter process.

I'm not saying all those problems don't have solutions, not that I've found them all yet, but they are reasons why jumping to grain mashing can be quite expensive in overall terms, either with equipment or ingredients.

IN A NUTSHELL: AG is costlier unless you brew bigger batches, and the bigger the batches, the more time you spend brewing and drinking and a lot less doing other things. Not everybody's cup of tea. If equipment like the Braumeister were made more affordably, I can see more people doing it, at least, try on inexpensive equipment to get some confidence and then buy a brewing unit to do it indoors on a small scale, as it exists they are expensive and putting together a rig gets expensive really quickly. A ball valve + fittings costs you a fair bob more than $20 to get a connection between pot and fermenter happening, and you need that to make it less messy/avoid siphoning wort, just an example how the price of small things makes it a lot more expensive. No chilling sounds great in theory but how is a noob supposed to work out the differences to bittering it makes! I'm just trying to make to recipe to get something resembling good beer made! Now you will point me to a brewing software and that again costs $$.

Point is, its going to cost you, a few different ways to tackle it but it still costs you a fait bit of $$, time and effort = Determination, which, well, how many noobs would raise their hands and say they would persist with making it happen! No wonder ppl say fuk it and stick to cans = ease + cheap overall.
 
Potentially mostly in terms of setting up. Cheaper than full extract in terms of ingredients and with care, can be on a par with kits.
 
Not sure whether the additional costs,more time involved and perceived hassle would result in a superior product !
Having said that I have just bought :
50ltr kettle
36ltr Esky (mash tun)
Victoria Grain Mill
2.4 KW Halogen Hotplate
Various valves & Fittings
Ph meter
Digital Thermometer x 2

All up around $450, just hope that the beer tastes good.
 
Potentially mostly in terms of setting up. Cheaper than full extract in terms of ingredients and with care, can be on a par with kits.

Oh, I forgot to say, To make it all worth it and work on a small scale, I mean to get a smaller carboy (12-15 litre).. easier to clean, seal up, siphoning fermented product is easy and the size will limit the amount of headspace I'm giving those small batches, just insurance really. Sucks to throw batches out especially if they are small as it talkes the same time.
Besides that, grain problem, well, contemplating making a rolling pin into a 2 roller mill (just an idea atm, I have woodworking tools, not so much metalworking tools), might look at knurling the surface to make it work. Have to hop on the next bulk buy and split a sack or two of grain.

All up around $450, just hope that the beer tastes good.

In the end, the tastiness will have to win it even if I manage to keep the costs down a bit. AG doesn't leave much of a scope for fasty style 'chuck it out cuz its just half an hour of effort to brew'. No offence to fasty - laziness is easy :)
 
IN A NUTSHELL: AG is costlier unless you brew bigger batches, and the bigger the batches, the more time you spend brewing and drinking and a lot less doing other things.

quite the opposite,i found going to bigger batches meant i was brewing not as often,and just cause you have more beer available dosent meen you have to up your consumption.Brewing a double AG batch takes as much time as a single AG batch,you still mash for an hour,boil for an hour,ferment for as long,its just everythings on a bigger scale.
 
A Bog-Standard Aussie Ale Quaffer (18L)

1.6kg BB Pale Malt $3.50
1.6kg BB Ale Malt $3.50
200g Caramunich $1.00
250g Sugaz $0.40
20g PoR $0.60
Stolen CPA yeast $0.00

Total: $9.00, or 50c a litre.

My gear is worth less than $50. This Aussie Ale is as good as anything made by Coopers.

It takes about an hour of actually doing stuff over a 4 hour period of watching recorded TV, often sport.

I enjoy brewing ... the smells and tastes and most importantly the recipe formulation and refinement.

If you brew the same simple beer as K&K AG is cheaper. It's much cheaper than Extract. But most of all - there are almost no limits to the beer you can make, and this is the true benefit of AG...

...you get to brew anything.
 
I did K&K for years, until about 7 months ago. Since then with lots of help from forums and an obsession to learn and advance from every brew, I have moved to K&B, Extract, Partial and now 3V AG. Actually did first double batch after 4 AG brews last night. You don't have to spend up big to get going, one bit a time. Ebay has been great as I live in the middle of nowhere with no GOOD HBS within cooee. Craftbrewer, Beerbelly, Grain & Grape send all my grain, hop, yeast requirents to my door for an average of $40 or so per brew inc postage. Not bad I reckon.
Cheers

BTW perceived lack of knowledge or access to info/supplies held me back.
 
Was interested in AG for a while- what put me off was the cost of ag "systems" from HBS's - but never took the time to understand what it was about and how it could be done cheaper.

Once i realised how simple it was I got right on into it - haven't really bought any new gear in a couple of years besides fermenters and new handy pails for mashtuns.
 
That is the challenge nick, to get to that sort of economy while keeping volume small and not dumping into expensive equipment. All while trying to keep the brew day smallish.

Sama, you are saying pretty much what I said too, except that I did say that beer does have more limited shelf life and really, how much of the same stuff can you keep drinking again and again! Half the fun of HB to me is that I can toss the ingredients around and some different tasting beers. I'm really not against AG, I just felt that the original questions in OP were being largely ignored by some responses after some decent honest answers and many times the discussion lacked depth, split up the cost of equipment over litres of brew in a 2 year period and you would start to see why going AG to Nickesque economy means your equipment costs a lot. Nick is a bloody genius doing it cheapo (along with other experienced brewers, but let them tell me it costed fukall to start, learn and consistently brew cheap good beer!) Its all about finding the sweet spot I suppose.

I didn't even much touch upon the part where storage of equipment and bulk bought ingredients starts costing you: extra fridges (not kegging yet, just for hops and yeast), clean cool areas to stock malted grain, keeping lots of beer in cool temps for storage (side effect of brewing big batches). I read threads on here about guys putting on entire sheds and cubby houses to house the brewing in, installing new electrics, plumbing etc (that happens even if you refit an existing shed/garage). I'm sure some of that is just about them loving doing it but there must be some real needs as well! I bet the Doc can brew and clean up in his new brewhaus way quicker than most ppl can in their kitchens. Can end up being a really full time hobby if you take it to full enjoyment, hehe.. that can be scary. And if you say you won't up drinking with increased brewing! well, whats the fun of brewing and spending so much if you aren't going to enjoy it!

Yada yada.. yes, I am looking too far into things, but I know these things will happen.. and I am thinking they need to be accounted for.

This thread is about starting AG, yes I realise, all I'm saying is normal can brewing already stretches the ingenuity of a noob brewer and handling, storing and processing malted grain etc just adds to those troubles.

Anywho, I hope my lengthy (yes, very) procastrination helps someone understand the whole hassle of getting into it and to keep it cheap at the same time is not exactly a 30 dollar affair. With some tinkering, it must get cheaper but still a fair jump from using Malt extracts or pre hopped tins. I'll acknowledge them because I'm still playing with these issues and facing them setting my brewing up.

PS: Did I mention none of this is actually stopping me from making all grain beer :)
 
I've given a ton of advice, especially over the last 2 weeks (in a very kind manner, mind you) saying "if you are soaking grains and adding them to your brew, you have most of the technique there. Then I get met with lame answers like "I'm too scared to make a recipe" or "I don't know which recipe to do and the hopping thing scares me". Even had the same thing when I told someone "you are basically extract brewing, but with a tin of already hopped go, why not give extract brewing a go and choose your own hopping schedule", it'll take minimally extra time. And still had them go "maybe later". I felt like saying "look, I got three kids under 6 - I can make the time every few weeks or so and they don't suffer at all, how can you say you have 'no time'".

This forum is fantastic and full of knowledgeable people, willing to share - but some people are just plain lazy. You hold their hand through the entire process and they still find an excuse to say it's too hard.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant (which it does on re-read), but fantastic guides like Nick_JD's are there, provided for free, and at the expense of his time. Tons of helpful persons donate their time and expertise for free on this forum alone (although there is a minority of AG nazi's, most are lovely people). You got a question, someone will have an answer (or several). And yet some people will still put it in the too hard basket and will stay where they are.

So maybe another "what has stopped..." answer is "some people are just plain lazy". :blink:

Goomba
Anyone looking for the "AG elitism" on this board there it is in a nutshell above. Dumb **** complaining about people not going AG because he tells them to...in the K&B forum. Stupidity.

Speaking of the K&B forum, wouldn't that be a better place for this thread to live, mods? (Pretending for a minute that any of you even log in any more. Am I the only one who remembers that even less than a year ago you couldn't log in without seeing at least 2 mods online at all times? Pretty telling, really. Time for some new blood, Doc/Dane.)
 
I reckon if you are not interested in learning or don't have a passion for brewing beer from scratch, it is going to be a lot harder to begin AG. I started brewing beer from cans of goop. But i always thought there was another way. Started reading another forum and then moved on to extract beers boiled on me stove. Then on to partials and then full all grain batchs on me stove simalar to Nick. But for me i always needed to change (i say improve) my system, so things are easier. So everything was a progression, and i bought gear as i went along to suit my budget. I still am buying things for my brewery, as my SWMBO says, it's never going to stop, your never going to have enough are you. So for me price did hold me back But i did without and brewed like nick while i saved some money. I would reccomend anyone interested in making beer from scatch to give it a go. The achievment you will feel when drinking such a beer is out of this world.
 
Anyone looking for the "AG elitism" on this board there it is in a nutshell above. Dumb **** complaining about people not going AG because he tells them to...in the K&B forum. Stupidity.

Speaking of the K&B forum, wouldn't that be a better place for this thread to live, mods? (Pretending for a minute that any of you even log in any more. Am I the only one who remembers that even less than a year ago you couldn't log in without seeing at least 2 mods online at all times? Pretty telling, really. Time for some new blood, Doc/Dane.)

Actually bum, when "AG elitism" was mentioned, you were the first name that popped into my mind.

Someone asked me a qu, in a K&K forum after mentioning that they were going to soak some grains. I offered advice about temp (after being asked), and mentioned in passing that this temp stuff is part of AG.

Then got told "AG is too hard, I don't get the mashing thing". my reply "um, you're doing it, AG is just doing it on a bigger scale" and so it went. Hard to see how that is elitist.

The other instance I mentioned was where a K&K brewer posted a question in the extract forum, and then as a result I replied as though it were an extract question. Then got told that extract brewing was too hard for a K&K person. Again, I offered no AG advice, yet I'm apparently an AG elitist.

And at least I can write a reply articulately enough without resorting to abuse, name calling and profanity. If the mods cared, they'd be booting you first for what is clearly antisocial behaviour.

Or in the more modern vernacular - you are a troll and a foul mouthed one at that.

Goomba
 
Nothing, I'm just following a natural progression of learning the art of making beer.
 
Or in the more modern vernacular - you are a troll and a foul mouthed one at that.

Bum's not a troll - he's just a brewing bigot. He believes there is only One True Way in brewing. Coincidentally, it's his way.

Still, I can hardly blame him, what with all those transgender pills - they would make anyone moody.
 
BTW perceived lack of knowledge or access to info/supplies held me back.
A common refrain and I had the same perception. I'm convinced though that LHBS staff go to training courses to help them deliberately keep their customers in the dark, I've not been in many at all where they sing the praises of AG. They generally do themselves no favours in that regard, 'always cloudy', 'just too hard', 'these kits are just as good, if not better' etc. If my LHBS hadn't given AG such a bad rap, I'd probably still shop with them, but I eventually discovered there's plenty of on- line suppliers and the odd forum to help with this sort of thing.

practicalfool, can I run this by you- my AG setup cost me all of $20- just a 19L stockpot, although I was gifted (and still use) a BIAB bag and I already had everything else on hand, then I shouted myself a grain mill ($140) about 6 months after my first AG but that's about it. I do 25L stovetop BIAB batches (link in sig) about every week in that same stockpot, while quality certainly isn't an issue- if you'll pardon the indulgence, my entry placed 3rd in the state comp with its first foray into competitive brewing. Extract was costing me about $40 a batch, but now its about half that, perhaps a little more overall, so on economics alone it has been good enough for me. I just can't see how the Nickesque economy argument stands though? I'm probably in the minority in that there's been no need to upgrade from stovetop and I've found a bit of a comfortable sweet spot, if I had to do it all from scratch it would probably be a bit harder to balance.
I suppose there's the social cost too though, have to admit there's been some tense moments in the household which can be largely attributed to my choice of hobby and the time it consumes, but nothing so serious that a compromise couldn't be negotiated.

My 2c, hope it helps! :icon_cheers:
 
Can I just mention Ravioli.

Make it from scratch?

Nah, bollox, you just open a tin...

Technically it's the same... ;)

The reason I started AG, from day one...

it's like anything, it's all about priorities - you want it? make it exactly how you want...

AG Troll? Elitist? Read the post again and try and work out what makes you angry about my typing.
 
Anyone looking for the "AG elitism" on this board there it is in a nutshell above. Dumb **** complaining about people not going AG because he tells them to..


:icon_cheers:
 

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