What Are You Brewing III

[drsmurto]

<snip>

4* I notice the use of the Calcium Chloride and Gypsum in your recipe. For an Irish Ale I was under the impression that Dublin water was very soft, hence the preeminence of Stouts, but would that also apply to Irish Ales in general? (Smithwicks etc) or do they Burtonise their water first I wonder.

Interesting point to note is that the water source stated for Dublin is the River Liffey which Guinness DOES not use for brewing and never has. Its an urban legend that the leprechauns like to spout ad nasuem. Its presumably their attempt to continue to claim Guinness as their own when its now a multinational megacompany (that also own most of the distilleries in Scotland and Ireland) which hasn't had a Guinness as a head brewer for more than 50 years.

The water used is actually quite soft and the dark grains added after the base malts are mashed.......

So talk about water chemistry, carbonates, residual alkalinity will be way off as the roasted barley isnt mashed with the base malt. Its added as an extract liquid to the kettle.

Which fits in well with those who have been added their dark grains when brewing stouts during the sparge.

 

[Bribie G]

Bribie's Fake Lager -

4kg Joe White Export Pilsner
0.5kg Rice
0.5kg Cane Sugar

90 min mash at 65 degrees
75 min boil

15g Pride Of Ringwood (FWH)
15g B-Saaz 10 min

~20 IBU
~5 EBC

US-05 17 degrees


Smells and tastes great from keg to no chill cube. Cant wait.

Found a bottle the other day at the back of the cupboard that was easily 3 months old and it was bloody nice, better than any domestic Mega lager you can get from the bottlo. I've decided the next lot I do, I won't keg it, I'll bottle it in glass and just keep it for Easter :beerbang:

 

[Bribie G]

Interesting point to note is that the water source stated for Dublin is the River Liffey which Guinness DOES not use for brewing and never has. Its an urban legend that the leprechauns like to spout ad nasuem. Its presumably their attempt to continue to claim Guinness as their own when its now a multinational megacompany (that also own most of the distilleries in Scotland and Ireland) which hasn't had a Guinness as a head brewer for more than 50 years.

The water used is actually quite soft and the dark grains added after the base malts are mashed.......

So talk about water chemistry, carbonates, residual alkalinity will be way off as the roasted barley isnt mashed with the base malt. Its added as an extract liquid to the kettle.

Which fits in well with those who have been added their dark grains when brewing stouts during the sparge.

Now that's interesting, I could do a steep with the red grains and add / sparge the resulting runnings to the kettle - I'm doing a 90 min boil so a bit of extra liquid into the urn won't hurt. Also I have a 10L cube of springwater left over from Xmas, it's very soft, so I might chuck that in as part of the initial strike liquor for the base malt. :icon_cheers: An top o the mornin to you.

 

[Fourstar]

4* I notice the use of the Calcium Chloride and Gypsum in your recipe. For an Irish Ale I was under the impression that Dublin water was very soft, hence the preeminence of Stouts, but would that also apply to Irish Ales in general? (Smithwicks etc) or do they Burtonise their water first I wonder.

Sorry bud, this is an American Red Ale e.g. American Amber Ale. If i was doing an Irish Red the only thing i would add is aclacium chloride to get the Ca up to 50ppm for enzyme activity and yeast health.

The water used is actually quite soft and the dark grains added after the base malts are mashed.......
So talk about water chemistry, carbonates, residual alkalinity will be way off as the roasted barley isnt mashed with the base malt. Its added as an extract liquid to the kettle.
Which fits in well with those who have been added their dark grains when brewing stouts during the sparge.

Is this true to their 250 year old process or a new modern day invention (adding dark grain late, not the extract part)? My understanding was they well their water but i have NFI what their profile is like other than its supposedly balanced. Surely the brewery is doing some sort of modification to their water for repeatability and flavour profile?!

Oh, just saw this : http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/gu...lic-442090.html app they use the public water supply.

Now that's interesting, I could do a steep with the red grains and add / sparge the resulting runnings to the kettle - I'm doing a 90 min boil so a bit of extra liquid into the urn won't hurt. Also I have a 10L cube of springwater left over from Xmas, it's very soft, so I might chuck that in as part of the initial strike liquor for the base malt. :icon_cheers: An top o the mornin to you.

i'd just brew it as you usually do BribieG. There is no roast/acidic grains there so there is no need for carbonates at this stage anyway. Remember though, the 10L of spring water will cut your water profile by 1/3.


EDIT: Further reading finds that they get their water from the wicklow mountains which is the major supply for the Dublin population. Guinness = Dublin tap water But who's to say they dont RO or treat their water in some way.

 

[drsmurto]

I'll dig the info up tonight about it as it was in a good history of Guinness that contained a lengthy and detailed interview with one of the brewers, Fergul Murray.

He was adamant that the water source is different to the public supply. I've no doubt that some water chemistry is going on but the large amount of carbonate you might think is needed to balance the dark grains isn't, as they aren't part of the main mashing process.

The article you linked to only suggested that Guinness was using its own water to supply the public, not that they had town water.

The separate mashes/late addition of dark grains is a 'modern' brewing practice, how modern i cant recall.

Another point to note is that since Guinness is brewed all over the world using different water sources, each brewery adds a flavour extract (the quantity differs) to the final product so that it supposedly tastes the same from every brewery. SO the concept that Guinness tastes better from the St James gate brewery is a romantic ideal, not a fact.

All of this information comes from a Guinness licensed and approved history so i guess it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Is it fact or marketing spin?

It certainly got me thinking about how i approach brewing irish stout. The addition of dark grains late in the mash or even cold steeped has been something people have been doing for years with the idea that it smooths out the roast bite.

EDIT - grammar

 

[Fourstar]

I'll dig the info up tonight about it as it was in a good history of Guinness that contained a lengthy and detailed interview with one of the brewers, Fergul Murray.
He was adamant that the water source is different to the public supply. I've no doubt that some water chemistry is going on but the large amount of carbonate you might think is needed to balance the dark grains isn't, as they aren't part of the main mashing process.
The article you linked to only suggested that Guinness was using its own water to supply the public, not that they had town water.
The separate mashes/late addition of dark grains is a 'modern' brewing practice, how modern i cant recall.
Another point to note is that since Guinness is brewed all over the world using different water sources, each brewery adds a flavour extract (the quantity differs) to the final product so that it supposedly tastes the same from every brewery. SO the concept that Guinness tastes better from the St James gate brewery is a romantic ideal, not a fact.
All of this information comes from a Guinness licensed and approved history so i guess it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Is it fact or marketing spin?
It certainly got me thinking about how i approach brewing irish stout. The addition of dark grains late in the mash or even cold steeped has been something people have been doing for years with the idea that it smooths out the roast bite.
EDIT - grammar

Taken from the article:

Guinness, the largest user of public water supplies in Dublin, said it immediately offered to help the city council when levels became critically low, during the past week.

Would be cool if you could pull up that info. Be good to get some indepth history with the hope (as you said) that it is not a marketing spin.

 

[Bribie G]

According to Protz, for Guinness iteslf: "Water comes from the Wicklow Mountains and is treated with Gypsum to harden it". Also the Guinness strain of yeast used in Dublin is highly flocculent and is fermented at 25 degrees sez Protz. Now wouldn't Wyeast love to get their hands on some of that

Wow then after a two day fermentation they centrifuge the beer to remove the yeast.

:huh:

 

[chappo1970]

Well I am going to have another bash at this one. Just made a few little tweaks to suit

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.10 kg Treacle [Boil for 15 min] Extract 0.90 %
9.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 85.97 %
0.70 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 6.33 %
0.30 kg Aromatic Malt (51.2 EBC) Grain 2.71 %
0.10 kg Biscuit Malt (45.3 EBC) Grain 0.90 %
100.00 gm Challenger [7.90 %] (90 min) Hops 39.7 IBU
60.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (20 min) Hops 9.2 IBU
42.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (Dry Hop 3 daysHops -
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
0.35 kg Invert Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 3.17 %
1 Pkgs Wyeast Labs Thames Valley Ale III #1882PC Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 10.60 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
15 min Protein Rest Add 31.81 L of water at 53.5 C 50.0 C
SECRETE MASHING TECHNIQUE
75 min Saccharification Heat to 65.0 C over 15 min 65.0 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C

Not not going to caramelize this one this time see if that can tame it down a little.

(Yes BribieG I am after your crown )

 

[cdbrown]

Currently have this in the fermenter

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 034 Belgian Tripel
Brewer: Craig Brown
Asst Brewer:
Style: Belgian Tripel
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Boil Size: 30.86 L
Estimated OG: 1.084 SG
Estimated Color: 12.7 EBC
Estimated IBU: 26.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 63.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.50 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 77.75 %
0.72 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (3.9 EBC) Grain 8.61 %
0.14 kg Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 1.67 %
25.00 gm Northern Brewer [9.60 %] (90 min) Hops 24.0 IBU
30.00 gm Styrian Goldings [2.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.0 IBU
1.00 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 EBC) Sugar 11.96 %
1 Pkgs SafBrew Specialty Ale (DCL Yeast #T-58) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 7.36 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 19.19 L of water at 71.9 C 65.6 C
10 min Mash Out Add 12.28 L of water at 93.5 C 75.6 C

And planning on brewing this tomorrow night

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: 02 Go For Gold
Brewer: Craig Brown
Asst Brewer:
Style: Australian Lager
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (40.0) Easy to make, simple infusion mash for a great easy drinking beer

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 22.00 L
Boil Size: 26.96 L
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 11.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 21.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.60 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) (3.3 EBC) Grain 86.79 %
0.60 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (14.0 EBC) Grain 11.32 %
0.10 kg Caramunich III (Weyermann) (139.9 EBC) Grain 1.89 %
20.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (60 min) Hops 20.0 IBU
15.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (2 min) Hops 1.3 IBU
10.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [9.00 %] (1 min) Hops 0.4 IBU
1 Pkgs SafLager West European Lager (DCL Yeast #SYeast-Lager


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.30 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 13.82 L of water at 71.9 C 65.6 C
10 min Mash Out Add 8.85 L of water at 93.5 C 75.6 C

 

[Bribie G]

Chappo: go those sugaz, go those sugaz - now your'e learning

 

[chappo1970]

Chappo: go those sugaz, go those sugaz - now your'e learning

Yes master Yoda! :lol:

The inverted sugaz are the key to a good ESB if you ask me.

 

[winkle]

Well I am going to have another bash at this one. Just made a few little tweaks to suit

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.10 kg Treacle [Boil for 15 min] Extract 0.90 %
9.50 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 85.97 %
0.70 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (118.2 EBC) Grain 6.33 %
0.30 kg Aromatic Malt (51.2 EBC) Grain 2.71 %
0.10 kg Biscuit Malt (45.3 EBC) Grain 0.90 %
100.00 gm Challenger [7.90 %] (90 min) Hops 39.7 IBU
60.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (20 min) Hops 9.2 IBU
42.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] (Dry Hop 3 daysHops -
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Primary 3.0 days) Misc
0.35 kg Invert Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 3.17 %
1 Pkgs Wyeast Labs Thames Valley Ale III #1882PC Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 10.60 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 2 Step, Full Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
15 min Protein Rest Add 31.81 L of water at 53.5 C 50.0 C
SECRETE MASHING TECHNIQUE
75 min Saccharification Heat to 65.0 C over 15 min 65.0 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 78.0 C over 10 min 78.0 C

Not not going to caramelize this one this time see if that can tame it down a little.

(Yes BribieG I am after your crown )

Another batch! Strewth!! you must have bought your own pallet of grain

 

[chappo1970]

Another batch! Strewth!! you must have bought your own pallet of grain

Just filling for the drinking season

 

[Bribie G]

Challenger and Styrians, match made in heaven. If your'e kegging, get a teaball from Ross and put a plug of Styrians into it and drop it into keg :icon_drool2:

 

[RdeVjun]

Not not going to caramelize this one this time see if that can tame it down a little.

Yeah, I thought that first one might be OTT with caramelising in the mix alongside all those specs. It calms down and rounds off after few weeks but eventually you lose some of the late hops too. Swings and roundabouts, old chap. Your timing with this might be important for the comps.
BTW, love to know how that new yeast goes.

Challenger and Styrians, match made in heaven. If your'e kegging, get a teaball from Ross and put a plug of Styrians into it and drop it into keg :icon_drool2:

Yep, I'll second that Bribie, individually they're superb, together just brilliant! :chug:

 

[drsmurto]

Would be cool if you could pull up that info. Be good to get some indepth history with the hope (as you said) that it is not a marketing spin.

Ok, book is in front of me. Its called 'Guinness - The 250 year quest for the perfect pint' by Bill Yenne.

The relevant chapter is called ' Inside the gate with the Master Brewer'.

A few more tidbits to start with (accurate or marketing spin, I'll leave you to decide)

Guinness Draught has 10% roasted barley.
Its 42 IBU (FES is 65)

The roasted barley is added to the kettle as a concentrated extract.

Fermentation occurs at 25C and is finished in 60 hours. Its then conditioned for 4 days.

And the bit that has been speculated about ad infinitum - during the conditioning process another portion of a separate batch is added. Its referred to as the St James Gate brewing essence and is different to the main beer. How is not said for obvious reasons.

Water wise the only information in the book states a number of times that the water isn't sourced from the River Liffey which is one of (but not the only) supplier of water for dubliners. A quick search came up with a sign that is apparently in the Guinness Storehouse in Dublin - Link - which agrees with Bribie in that it comes from the Wicklow Mountains. I thought the book mentioned the source but i must have been mistaken.

So i guess its a bit of a case of yes and no, the water from the mountains does feed into the liffey so on a technicality they use 'Dublin' water but whether it has the same profile as the one stated for Dublin is up for debate. Supposedly as its sourced from the mountains its more pure. Does that mean it contains less carbonates? Again, debatable. Has it travelled through much limestone at the point Guinness taps into it....

So since i have managed to not actually answer any of the questions i will throw this one back at you.

Suppose the water used in Guinness is low in carbonates.

Suppose they do actually add the roast as an extract to the kettle.

Does this make sense from a water chemistry point of view since they are implying the mash tun only contains pale malt (and presumably flaked barley although the grist is never mentioned in the book). If there isn't any dark grains in the mash tun then it would seem you don't need a high carbonate water to bring the mash pH back to the sweet spot.

A quick scan of the chapter of mash pH in Palmer mentions Dublin and Guinness as a specific example but the entire basis of that is that the dark grains are added to the mash tun. I haven't read anything that mentions carbonate adding to the beer tastewise, its always about the buffering capacity and mash pH.

So on that basis you could brew a stout using pilsen water if you added the dark grains separately.

I think i have dragged this thread off topic for long enough. I'll climb back under my rock now

 

[jbowers]

BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Generic IIPA
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial IPA
TYPE: Extract
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 10.90 L
Boil Size: 11.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.084 SG
Estimated Color: 8.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 90.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: - %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.00 kg Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 76.92 %
0.20 kg Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 7.69 %
21.00 gm Simcoe [12.00 %] (60 min) Hops 47.4 IBU
20.00 gm Simcoe [12.00 %] (20 min) Hops 27.3 IBU
19.00 gm Simcoe [12.00 %] (10 min) Hops 15.5 IBU
20.00 gm Simcoe [12.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
0.40 kg Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (0.0 SRM) Sugar 15.38 %
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: None
Total Grain Weight: 4.54 kg
----------------------------


Notes:
------
Some reason gravity came out wrong, so boosted it up to 11ish litres, added 400 gm dex and 200 more of DME. Aerated with both pump and drill spoon thing (20-25 minutes pump). Pitched a pack of us-05.

 

[grod5]

Inspired by Doctor S, I am going to do this Saturday.

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 30.54 L
Estimated OG: 1.043 SG
Estimated Color: 13.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 31.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
2.50 kg Pilsner (3.3 EBC) Grain 52.63 %
1.00 kg Munich Malt (16.0 EBC) Grain 21.05 %
1.00 kg Wheat Malt (3.3 EBC) Grain 21.05 %
0.25 kg Cara Munich T1 (90.0 EBC) Grain 5.26 %
25.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.20 %] (60 min) Hops 23.4 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.20 %] (10 min) Hops 5.1 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.20 %] (5 min) Hops 2.8 IBU
15.00 gm Amarillo Gold [8.20 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.22 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs US-05 (SAF) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 4.75 kg

 

[hefevice]

To celebrate the birth of child #3, I've brewed a Belgian Dark Strong based on "Brew Like a Homebrewer" from Brewing Classic Styles.

Recipe as follows:

Recipe: Oude Headwetter Batch #18
Brewer: Geoff Everist
Style: Belgian Dark Strong Ale
TYPE: All Grain

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 24.00 L
Boil Size: 33.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.103 SG
Estimated Color: 39.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 34.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
6.80 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 63.77 %
1.36 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 12.75 %
0.45 kg Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 4.22 %
0.45 kg Caramunich I (Weyermann) (51.0 SRM) Grain 4.22 %
0.45 kg Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 4.22 %
0.23 kg Melanoidin (Weyermann) (30.0 SRM) Grain 2.13 %
0.23 kg Wheat Malt, Pale (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 2.13 %
69.00 gm Hallertauer Mittelfrueh [4.60 %] (60 min)Hops 34.2 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.70 kg Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 6.56 %

1 Pkgs Belgian Abbey II (Wyeast Labs #1762)


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body
Total Grain Weight: 9.96 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Light Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 19.93 L of water at 77.1 C 67.0 C
10 min Mash Out Add 9.96 L of water at 96.9 C 75.6 C

Brew day went well and I hit all my numbers (2 SG points over on the OG, but can't complain about that). Made a 3L starter from a Single I brewed 2 weeks ago. Main screw up was that the wort sat for 2 days waiting for the yeast to be ready to pitch.

Main change to Jamil's recipe is to replace sugaz in the boil with Dark Candi Syrup, which I will gradually feed to the fermentation over 3 days once the main krausen has begun to subside.

Plan is to bottle this batch and open one every year on the little tacker's birthday.

Edit: Grandma

 

[chappo1970]

Maybe rename it the "Ja Knut Kracker"? 3 kids = very brave! Maybe buy a TV?