West Ryde (Sydney) Water. Low pH

[Fat Bastard]

Just a warning. I brewed today and to my horror found I'd missed my mash pH by a fair whack. Was 5.15 when it's normally around 5.3 for this particular recipe.

Idiot here didn't measure the water pH before he started did he. And idiot here had too much acid malt in the grist didn't he.

And when said idiot measured the tap water he was brewing with afterwards, it measured 6.1 when it should have been around 7.2. So that's a fairly huge swing from what the report days it should be.

Might have something to do with the recent rain.

Didn't know how to fix it, so I just left it. Should be drinkable. I hope.

 

[barls]

havent noticed but then again what are you doing brewing down the road?

 

[Fat Bastard]

Weat Ryde supplies the Northern Beaches. Supposedly.
Be interesting to see if anyone else has noticed anything funny going on. When I first got
Me pH meter I would measure the tap water regularly and it went through a period when it was as high as 9, but not really noticed any big swings for a couple of years, so I forgot about it.

 

[rude]

What PH meter did you buy

 

[Fat Bastard]

A very expensive Hanna Instruments one. Waterproof with automatic temperature correction. Calibrated regularly. And calibrated no less than three times on the day in question.

 

[mb-squared]

oh my, now you've got me thinking. I used to be so anal about checking Ph (I also have a fancy, expensive Ph meter), but my water here was always 8.1 so I just stopped checking it after a few times. I guess I should make it part of my routine again!

 

[rude]

Mmm now MB has me confused is he taking the piss maybe
Hannah have some real expensive ones but either way calibration seams to be the only
way for correct measurement at room temp plus correct storage
So what model did you go FB
I was thinking about not buying one & just guessing say 8 ph but then again I like a bit of a punt
My report says between the 7.5 to 8 I think live in west Aust so need something going for us with the high sodium , chloride and all

 

[sponge]

6.1 is really low for tap water. Something definitely seem off..

 

[Fat Bastard]

I bought one of these: http://shop.hannainst.com/hi98128-phep-ph-tester.html in the recommendation if a few people on here.

I've been meaning to call the water quality folks at West Ryde and ask them about it, but I haven't ha a chance. Meter should be good, it tested ok on the day more than once, although it does have a tendency to creep if left in a cooling solution. It's a lot better than the one the instrument tech at work uses!

 

[rude]

Looks like a beauty have read on here that they are good
Do you do 1 or 2 point calibration 4.1 & ? & is it easy to calibtate

 

[mb-squared]

Here's the one that I use: http://www.instrumentchoice.com.au/instrument-choice/environment-meters/ph-meters-2/ph100-ph-meter-for-flat-surfaces

super easy to calibrate and use. but more dear than FB's, so probably best to go with his.

 

[rude]

$200 but it looks good what's it mean about flat surfaces
When you test do you take out some wort from mash cool & test

 

[Fat Bastard]

That is a pretty flash one mb has. Mine works well enough. 2 point calibration, has a built in temp probe to correct for temperature ( to a limit of 60c) and is waterproof.

I normally take a sample in a small Pyrex glass and let it cool a little before dropping the probe in. Easy as!

Water here seems to have returned to its normal 7.2 today. Dunno what the problem was with it, but I reckon I'll be measuring it more frequently.

 

[Dunkelbrau]

Strange that its gone so low.

You really should cool all samples to room temp prior to checking (couldn't gather if you waited that long or not) for the probe longevity if not for the accurate reading.

There are two issues at play at higher temp, the wort will read a different pH at the higher temp, AND the probe reads different at the higher temp, ATC compensates for the latter, which means your reading is still technically out by up to 0.3ish.

All pH samples should (for consistency, and probe health) be cooled to room temp (the same temp as the calibration solution).

Back on topic - I'd give em a call and see what they say, maybe they anticipated a rise and overcompensated?

 

[srm]

I just checked and found that Sydney's Northern Beaches water comes from Warragamba Dam via the Prospect Water Filtration Plant and the Ryde Water Supply System for which Sydney Water cites a pH ranging from a minimum of 7.7 to a maximum of 7.9 (Average 7.8) for the first quarter of 2015 and 7.5, 7.9 and (7.7) respectfully for the 12 months to end-March 2015.

Three points ...

1. with this historic narrow range many people would comfortably adopt say pH 7.8 as a starting point for adjusting your water profile,

2. anyone could become complacent and not measuring every time, and

3. this data does not gel with your cited usual tap water of "around pH 7.2".

I for one have relied on Sydney Water data as a starting point for my brewing water adjustments. In responding to your warning, my thought now is that RO water is perhaps a better starting point for water profile adjustments that tap water.

 

[manticle]

My understanding has always been that water pH is somewhat irrelevant. Water mineral content as well as grist composition is the main thing that will affect mash pH and mash pH is what counts.

Without conducting your own mineral analysis, it really is something of a guess anyway as reports average values taken over a sampling period (as you are no doubt aware).

If you are concerned at all (and with water with so close to neutral values, I probably wouldn't be unless there's other crap in there like chloramines), season the mash with enough calcium in a salt form appropriate for preferred beer style, take a reading part way in and adjust with lactic or similar if (and only if) necessary rather than adding everything in at the start.

 

[rude]

Have been keen to try water adjustments & have seen quoted mash PH is what you are after

Having said that though if you had 2 different water ph's same mineral content 1 at 6 ,1 at 8 and the same grain bill for both
surely the mash ph would be different ?

Also does total alkilinity play a role in the ability of the mash being able to buffer or change the ph ?

Just trying to get my head around all this cheers

 

[rude]

Ok just had another read of bruns water knowledge

Residual Alkalinity (RA) is brewing-specific value that is derived from both the water's Hardness and Alkalinity to help evaluate potential mashing pH conditions.
Alkalinity is a measure of the "buffering" capacity of a solution and its ability to neutralize strong acid and resist pH change.

 

[Fat Bastard]

I just checked and found that Sydney's Northern Beaches water comes from Warragamba Dam via the Prospect Water Filtration Plant and the Ryde Water Supply System for which Sydney Water cites a pH ranging from a minimum of 7.7 to a maximum of 7.9 (Average 7.8) for the first quarter of 2015 and 7.5, 7.9 and (7.7) respectfully for the 12 months to end-March 2015.

Three points ...

1. with this historic narrow range many people would comfortably adopt say pH 7.8 as a starting point for adjusting your water profile,

2. anyone could become complacent and not measuring every time, and

3. this data does not gel with your cited usual tap water of "around pH 7.2".

I for one have relied on Sydney Water data as a starting point for my brewing water adjustments. In responding to your warning, my thought now is that RO water is perhaps a better starting point for water profile adjustments that tap water.

1. I adopted 7.8 early in the game and had trouble hitting my targeted pH range. See point 3
2. Absolutely agree.
3. I know this. from my early observations when I measured every time, the average figure was 7.2 over half a dozen odd brews. Once i adoped this figure in Bru'n Water, i had less trouble hitting my target range.Although sometimes I think the data can tell you more about the instrument than what you're actually trying to measure, i'm convinced that the water pH is somewhat lower than the figure quoted at the pumping station at West Ryde (Which by the way is a very handsome building buit in the early part of last century on Victoria Road).

Could be the way they measure it, could be the way I measure it, or a bit of both. If I get some time during business hours, i'll try to call them and see what they think.

Mantesticles, I'm thinking about abandoning the acid malt and going to adjusting with Lactic Acid. Not convinced that acid malt is consistent and adding it at the beginning means you're stuffed if you need to change something

 

[Fat Bastard]

Strange that its gone so low.

You really should cool all samples to room temp prior to checking (couldn't gather if you waited that long or not) for the probe longevity if not for the accurate reading.

There are two issues at play at higher temp, the wort will read a different pH at the higher temp, AND the probe reads different at the higher temp, ATC compensates for the latter, which means your reading is still technically out by up to 0.3ish.

All pH samples should (for consistency, and probe health) be cooled to room temp (the same temp as the calibration solution).

Back on topic - I'd give em a call and see what they say, maybe they anticipated a rise and overcompensated?

Ideally, that's what I'd do if i was serious. I normally take a small sample in a pyrex glass and let it cool a little first. Then i put the probe in and let it sit for about 5 minutes. The indicator normally says it's happy with the reading early on, but as I know it will keep changing as it cools, I leave it to sit for a while. While it's not exactly room temperature, I reckon it's close enough for all intents and purposes.