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Doc

Doctor's Orders Brewing
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I'm trying to determine the quality of the water I'll be using for mashing. Basically trying to determine the pH level.
I thought that Sydney Water would publish on their website the water analysis breakdown, but they don't.

Even more so which areas of Sydney are provided water from which resovoir?

Has anyone already done, an analysis on Sydneys town water supply and completed the breakdown of it with respect to J Palmers How to Brew water section. I know they give you a lot of info. when you get your water bill, but it is usually historic (and I can't find one, and the next bill is months away).

I've heard that Sydney water is soft, similar to Pilsen in Czech Replubic.
Does anyone know?

Cheers,
Doc
 

RegBadgery

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I have data for locations across Sydney supplied by Sydney Water. Send me your email address (and anyone else who wants it) and I'll post it.

Alternatively, if you're a member of the Craftbrewing list you can download Sydney Water analysis.zip from the files section on the website

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CraftBrewing/files/

cheers
reg
 

Doc

Doctor's Orders Brewing
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Got my water bill today, and was browsing through the other crap they send out with it.

Anyway Sydney Catchment Authority have a web site and they have an annual report you can download. It is in PDF form and contains more information than you ever thought you would want to know.

The 2002 report isn't their yet but you can check out the 2000-2001 Water Report.

If you want quick info (and more recent) then Reg can provide that. Otherwise you can check out the link above.

Cheers,
Doc
 

Doc

Doctor's Orders Brewing
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I have just been playing around with the BreWater 3.0 app.
It is really neat. You can put in your water and use the profile it contains for famous brewers brewing water to obtain the differences. It then lets you know what you need to alter your water to match the selected style.

Here is the direct link to the app as the one from this page doesn't work. This page does however have the primer for the app.

Cheers,
Doc
 

dane

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Doc said:
I have just been playing around with the BreWater 3.0 app.
It is really neat. You can put in your water and use the profile it contains for famous brewers brewing water to obtain the differences. It then lets you know what you need to alter your water to match the selected style.

Here is the direct link to the app as the one from this page doesn't work. This page does however have the primer for the app.

Cheers,
Doc
Now that would be a nice program to convert to php and put online :D
 

Gout

Bentleigh Brau Haus
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Just bringing up this post again as i have some questions:

The melbourne report does not list C03 Carbonates (or does it??)
so i cant (at this stage) enter it into the program Doc listed above

I gather 1ppm = 1mg/L (if so melbourne water is VERY low in these ions compared to other countrys brew water)

And lastly

how do you enter the Alk and Hardness of the waters both melbourne and for example Burton

pH on the brain
Ben
 

jayse

Black Label Society
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it should have alkalinty as CaCO3.
Divid that by 50 and times by 61 and you get HCO3

Cheers Jayse
 

big d

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i know i will get the answer when in adelaide but out of curiosity how much emphasis do you place on ph with ag brewing or is it primarily followed when chasing a particular style with area location and water at the fore.as i consider myself in the early learning stages of ag i at this stage place ph at the rear end of my necessities.

cheers
d
 
J

Jovial_Monk

Guest
pH in the mash?

oh boy oh boy




look in 20 out of 20 brew books
they will tell you "a mash is a buffered system"

same silly brew books then go on to say a mere teaspoon, yes teaspoon, of gypsum will lower mash pH by a lightyear.





forget all that crap, and focus on the "buffered system"



Even if we could, by heroic additions of acid (forget about mere additions of tsp of gypsum) acidify the mash then the proteins in the mash will "protonate" (i.e take up huge quantities of H- ions) thus leaving lots and lots of OH- (caustic) anions in the mash.

So, if you have alkaline water (well water, etc) as you only source of mash liquor, you will need to perform heroic treatment of that water to arrive at roughly neutral (pH=7) water to mash in with.

When a mash contains dark grains (crystal, but even better chocolate malt or black patent malt or roast barley) you can be assured the mash pH will be in acid range, low 5's pH

In Adelaide our water contains some bicarbonates. If you are brwing a Pilsner the carbonates may be a problem. Boil the bloody water, let it cool, then rack it off the powdery residue.

An all-pale mash, like a pilsner, I would mash in so the mash reaches 40C, acid rest, leave there for like 20 mins minium. Otherwise, I add some malic acid, available from wine places, and mash in at ale temps.

water chemistry is important, but there are ways to overcome it.

I mean, the first fucking IPA was brewed in London, FFS, home of low hopped porters etc, and was only knocked off the peerch as best beer to send to India because the brewer there was a greedy bastard who pissed off the directrors of the East India Company with his sharp practices!




JM
 

big d

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thanxs jm
think i will keep ph at the lower end of my brewing scale till i read up some more on it.
on the other hand my beers generally taste ok so will continue to indulge.dont think my taste buds will notice the difference with varying ph

cheers
big d
 
J

Jovial_Monk

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hehehhe

get justifiably pissed off by a dork

and you can post anything!


hehehhehe




Jovial Monk
 

chiller

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pH of both the mash and the sparge are very important. With water as salt ladened as Adelaide's you can adjust the sparge with phosphoric or lactic acid to lower it to about 5.7 at "room temp" which will fall due to dissociation of the hydrogen ions as the temp rises.

At the end of the sparge the pH should still be below 6. This is not as important for batch sparging as for continuous sparging.

With a light coloured beer sparge pH should be kept below pH of 6. A lighter coloured beer with darker roasted grains should maintain the sparge pH within the above range. However if the pH of your town water is high these slightly acid grain may not keep the grain bed ph in the range you want and it is times such as these that acidifying the sparge is called for.

There is howver little point worrying about pH of the mash or the sparge without a means of accurately measuring it.

Don't just assume -- measure.

I routinely adjust my mash and sparge but I do it with a meter.

Now -- gypsum.

This is calcium sulphate and the calcium component is very important to assist the enzymes in the malt to reach the correct pH [See the recent very good explanation on correct mash pH on craft brewers by David Lamotte]

Acidification of the mash is primarily done by the enzyme phytase, which is active at 30 to 53C and breaks down insoluble phytin, a complex organic phosphate containing both calcium and magnesium, to phytic acid. Phytic acid has a strong affinity for calcium ions, and it forms calcium phosphate and releases hydrogen ions in the process. Inorganic malt phosphates also react with calcium to release hydrogen ions, but the phytic acid reaction is more efficient. When mashing, phytase activity is greater with under-modified malt than with highly modified malt. Highly modified malts have very little phytase because of the high kilning temperatures.

The nature of the mashing water has an important influence on mash reactions. The ions of major importance at mashing are those of calcium and carbonate, with magnesium and sodium ions playing lesser roles. Calcium lowers the pH of the mash mainly by its interaction with phosphates and to a lesser degree with protein from the malt. Carbonate ions operate in the reverse direction.

If the water of the mash has insufficient calcium it will not reach correct pH. If this occurs and it often does mash efficiency levels can suffer.

A beer with a high proportion of dark malts can become too acid [pH level too low] and this can be a rare time to add Calcium Carbonate to the mash. Calcium Carbonate is normally an insuluable salt in water but because of mash acidity a reaction takes place and the ph of the mash can be held in the correct range.

Due to the strange composition of Adelaide water gypsum is a good water salt to add and if you do, keep the ratio of Sulpates to Chlorides at [as close as you can] 2:1

eg ... 100/50 or 300/150

Refer to the Murhy's site for information on this ratio.

http://www.murphyandson.co.uk/brewing_articles.htm

Depending on the water I'm brewing with I use gypsum [Calcium Sulphate] and/or Calcium Chloride.

Calcium Chlorideis not advisable to add to Adelaide water because of the rather high existing Chloride levels.

If you wish to structure a particular water profile you can guesstimate rain water as "reasonable" salt free [it isn't really] and adjust using a good set of scales and the following

Epson Salts -- Magnesium Sulphate [chemist]
Gypsum -- Calcium Sulphate
-- Calcium Chloride [Sometimes hard to find]
Chalk -- Calcium Carbonate
Table Salt -- Sodium Chloride [Must not be iodised -- harmful to yeast]
-- Sodium Bicarbonate [Strongly alkali]

These salts are all you need to achieve a good facsimile of any brewing water.

The "Calcium" rule for good mash efficiency is a minimum of 50ppm.

Don't attempt to gues salt weights. Weigh them and use BeerSmith or equivelant to help determine the salts to add. Doc mentioned a downloadable utility program for water chemistry that is very handy.

You cannot accurately dump acid into the water you have and hope. A pH meter is not that costly. Then when you have one you can acid wash yeast as well.

The above applies to mash brewing because you have the ability to control your processes.

Steve
 
J

Jovial_Monk

Guest
and the buffering action of the mash gets barely, no NONE mention!

guess Stevo can stand in for God

unless you dig water chemistry!

Jovial Monk
who never uses Adelaide water
 

devilsaltarboy

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chiller said:
You cannot accurately dump acid into the water you have and hope. A pH meter is not that costly. Then when you have one you can acid wash yeast as well.

The above applies to mash brewing because you have the ability to control your processes.

Steve
Very well put as an introduction to water chemistry. id only have to disagree with the pH meter being a neccesity, Iam a strong believer in quality narrow range indicators. I rarely use them as much as I used to since now that I know my water I can just add a bit of this and that quickly check pH and Im usually on the mark.
Peter
 

chiller

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devilsaltarboy said:
Very well put as an introduction to water chemistry. id only have to disagree with the pH meter being a neccesity, Iam a strong believer in quality narrow range indicators.
Good point Peter,

My reason for mentioning a meter as opposed to strips is based on [here in Adelaide] ready availability.

I priced a quality set of strips from a chemical supply company and over time the meter was just as cost effective.

Peter do you know if the strips have a "shelf" life and because of your background can you post what range you use and how to store them.

Thanks

Steve.
 

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