Water Chemistry Question

[seamad]

Thought that thhe desal plant was mothballled untill the next drought? Used to know one of the guys at the treatmment plant, thought that Cl llevels were changed according to temps and volumes consummed, so for real accuracy woulld neeed daily updatees.

 

[[email protected]]

Anyone have the water chemistry for the Gold Coast? I know there's a thread but I wonder if it's post-desalination? I can find nothing.

NickJD you can get hardness and alkalinity from here that is up to date:

http://www.seqwgm.qld.gov.au/bulk-water-qu...port-bulk-water

Doesn't help with SO4 and Cl. Like Argon, I have been using old Brissy data as a basis.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I've gotta say I'm with Foles on this one. I have .01g scales - I just don't feel the need to use them for salt additions.

Normally I am a "measure it to within a micron of its life" type of brewer - but in this case... I've done the water chem thing, all the complicated calculations, all the ppm bulldust. Been through the complexity and out the other side!

So now, for Melbourne tap water (which is so soft and lacking minerlas that it will do as an approximation of rain and or RO water in a pinch) I add

(Using measuring spoons from craftbrewer OK)

1 rounded tspn of Calcium Chloride to beers that are supposed to be mainly malty (approx 6g)
1 orunded tspn of Gypsum to beers that are supposed to be dry and hoppy (approx 6g)
1/2 tspn of each to beers that are supposed to be a balance between the two

If its an extremely biased beer like an IPA or a scotch ale - 1/2 tspn extra in either direction.

All beers get a half of a 1/4 tspn measure (or a decent pinch) of Magnesium Sulphate (for Mg not sulphate)

Acid to adjust mash pH down if the salts aren't enough - but they pretty much always are in Melb water.

I really keep sulphate additions to a minimum for Noble hopped beers, I dont like how they interact. And I will slap you if I catch you trying to add Chalk or Bicarb to any beer whatsoever - its not needed and makes your beer taste like shit.

Water chem is easy in soft water - pity the poor bastards with water thats already full of crap.

 

[drsmurto]

Volume measurements are close enough. You will not notice 10ppm here or there of a given mineral in your beer. I would only be going with superaccurate scales if I was trying to emulate a water profile precisely (or maybe If I had some).
A teaspoon of gypsum or cacl, or both in an RO mash will give good results - especially for a beginner.

Do you know that your RO is 100% free of minerals? I had mine tested in the US and I found my RO has 15ppm of chloride, 4ppm sodium, and <1 for everything else. If you dont know exactly what your starting with precision is being confused for accuracy.

Tested my rainwater myself and have less than 0.1 ppm of any of the brewing salts in my water.

And for the record, it's CaCl2 not CaCl, the latter doesn't exist.

Each to their own but a teaspoon is a volume measurement. You'll be in the ballpark and if that is good enough for you then fine.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

I've gotta say I'm with Foles on this one. I have .01g scales - I just don't feel the need to use them for salt additions.

Normally I am a "measure it to within a micron of its life" type of brewer - but in this case... I've done the water chem thing, all the complicated calculations, all the ppm bulldust. Been through the complexity and out the other side!

So now, for Melbourne tap water (which is so soft and lacking minerlas that it will do as an approximation of rain and or RO water in a pinch) I add

(Using measuring spoons from craftbrewer OK)

1 rounded tspn of Calcium Chloride to beers that are supposed to be mainly malty (approx 6g)
1 orunded tspn of Gypsum to beers that are supposed to be dry and hoppy (approx 6g)
1/2 tspn of each to beers that are supposed to be a balance between the two

If its an extremely biased beer like an IPA or a scotch ale - 1/2 tspn extra in either direction.

All beers get a half of a 1/4 tspn measure (or a decent pinch) of Magnesium Sulphate (for Mg not sulphate)

Acid to adjust mash pH down if the salts aren't enough - but they pretty much always are in Melb water.

I really keep sulphate additions to a minimum for Noble hopped beers, I dont like how they interact. And I will slap you if I catch you trying to add Chalk or Bicarb to any beer whatsoever - its not needed and makes your beer taste like shit.

Water chem is easy in soft water - pity the poor bastards with water thats already full of crap.

Thats all great..Not that it matters to me, BUT for someone else venturing into salt additions for the first time..
how much brewing water are those additions for?
Whats your batch size?
Did you add them to mash or boil or both?

:icon_cheers:

 

[Nick JD]

Thats all great..Not that it matters to me, BUT for someone else venturing into salt additions for the first time..
how much brewing water are those additions for?
Whats your batch size?
Did you add them to mash or boil or both?

:icon_cheers:

You'd want to know what's in your water already, first. Without that you might be making it worse, not better.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

An important point Nick - but given that the thread is about additions to RO water i think its safe to assume that people are talking about starting from a zero base unless they say otherwise? I was talking about Melb tap water, but thats so lacking in DS that it might as well be RO or rain.

Beer4U - true. I mean for a single batch, 20ish liters of finished beer. And i always advise people to add their salts to the mash tun only at mash in, given that the first and possibly most important job they do is to help control mash pH. If you already know there are reasons why you might not always want to do that and only that.... you already know enough to work this stuff out for yourself. So its self regulating advice.

I find a nice synergy between the position i have come to after having done the "water chemistry thing" to death - and the nice simple rules of thumb that beginning brewers want. So at the demos Spills and I do - we always add some salts to the mash. The punters want to know how much, why and when and all the other details.... and it plainly freaks them out as a topic. They tend to be a bit relieved when they get the "1 tsp" rule of thumb and its not so hard after all. I can also happily and honestly tell the punters that its exactly what I do in my brewing, and I'm no beginner.

Mind you - Going back to NickJD's point, that's NOT what I'd be telling them if we had different water. But for Melb, places with similar water and people on RO or rain water - well, its what I do, so plainly i think its an appropriate way to handle water chem.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

I find a nice synergy between the position i have come to after having done the "water chemistry thing" to death - and the nice simple rules of thumb that beginning brewers want. So at the demos Spills and I do - we always add some salts to the mash. The punters want to know how much, why and when and all the other details.... and it plainly freaks them out as a topic. They tend to be a bit relieved when they get the "1 tsp" rule of thumb and its not so hard after all. I can also happily and honestly tell the punters that its exactly what I do in my brewing, and I'm no beginner.

Mind you - Going back to NickJD's point, that's NOT what I'd be telling them if we had different water. But for Melb, places with similar water and people on RO or rain water - well, its what I do, so plainly i think its an appropriate way to handle water chem.

Yeah fair point, i can see how - even myself a year / half ago, if you broke out the digital scales accurate to 0.01g
and started measuring different salts in different quantities, splitting certain amounts for mash and boil, it would be enough for a lot of people to go " stuff it " and not adjust their water at all and never look further into water additions in the future.

 

[drsmurto]

The anally retentive scientist in me wants to scream everytime i see teaspoons being used for brewing salts...

But i punched some of the numbers in beersmith and they aren't that far out if you allow an error of 10% to change the chemistry a significant amount.

Given this is more about dipping the toes into the world of water chemistry I'm convinced. A few deep breaths, a beer and calm blue ocean.

As Nick/TB and others have said, the critical point is knowing what your base water chemistry is before you start adjusting it.

I'd also add that you should know why you are adjusting it (is it needed?) not just following someone's recipe or trying to mimic an historical water profile which is arguably no longer relevant.

Cheers
DrSmurto - trying to take a more relaxed approach to science on forums in 2012 :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

I like the quick and simple approach thirsty and I think people can get unnecessarily carried away with trying to replicate hypothetical profiles etc.

The one thing I'm not convinced on though (and I'm pretty confident you know what you're doing and I have tasted some of your beers) is the use of a teaspoon as a reasonable measurement. Calcium sulphate and calcium chloride will weigh different amounts. A heaped (or even slightly piled) teaspoon will weigh close to twice or more as much as a level teaspoon. An old granny's teaspoon will be vastly different to a metric cooking tsp.

Like you I have standard additions and for most beers it's simply balanced CaCl2 and CaSO4 to mash and boil for pH adjustment and flavour. Ocassionally I may omit CaS04 (although haven't found the imbalance with noble hops as yet) squeeze a lemon* in really pale beers or up the CaCl2 to push malt but one thing I do do is weigh them. It's easy. I weigh my hops (I don't guess or add 1/2 a cup) and for consistency and ease of use I weigh (and recommend others weigh) their salts.

The other thing I guess that comes to mind is that while trying to keep it simple for people trying to grasp the beginning concepts, it's still good to help them get the beginning concepts. That person who knows to add 1 tsp of CaCl2 to the mash while they live in Melbourne, may move to Perth one day (or the US).

What works for people works for them obviously - I count people's experiences with brewing as valid, especially when they have a lot of it (and there were no flames from me to Foles) but if I were trying to simplify water chemistry for someone, I'd still recommend they get a pair of scales before chucking salts in (and find out their water profile if not soft/RO) and get a very vague understanding of what salts do what (and why CaCO3 comes from Satan's bumhole).

* Yes I realise the hypocrisy of pushing for accurate measurement of salts while one of my ocassional measurements is a 'squeeze' of a randomly sized fruit.

 

[Nick JD]

DrSmurto - trying to take a more relaxed approach to science on forums in 2012 :icon_cheers:

Yes, Doc ... craft brewing is an artform. To standardise the product is to destroy it's mystique.

It's only when things vary that we can strive to make them perfect.

 

[MHB]

Snip
I really keep sulphate additions to a minimum for Noble hopped beers, I dont like how they interact. And I will slap you if I catch you trying to add Chalk or Bicarb to any beer whatsoever - its not needed and makes your beer taste like shit.

I used to feel that way about Chalk to, but will add a caveat, have had a couple of long hard discussions with Gough (Shawn) about his Wild Thing Imperial Stout, mate I was way wrong on that one, Chalk makes a big difference to beers with a shed load of Roast and other dark malt/grain in them.
The difference being like a barbwire pull-through verses silky smooth.
Its worth having a look at the interrelation between Carbonate and Phosphate and the role that plays in mash pH, but only for very dark beers.
Otherwise, complete waste of time adding chalk.
MHB

 

[dent]

As hygroscopic as CaCl2 is, I wouldn't be surprised if the volume measurement turned out to be more accurate than the mass.

 

[bradsbrew]

Nick RO water is shit, it sent Bribie mad and gave him haemoroids. get rid of it. I will give you 200L of kallangur water for it.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

As hygroscopic as CaCl2 is, I wouldn't be surprised if the volume measurement turned out to be more accurate than the mass.

Can you elaborate?

 

[felten]

the absorbed water would add to the weight

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Can you elaborate?

I think dent may be referring to how easy CaCl2 absorbs moisture from the air - aka Damprid.
So when you weigh it you may in fact be weighing a certain amount of water already absorbed into the crystal.

 

[manticle]

If that's true, how would a teaspoon (presumably prone to the same) be any more accurate? Maybe a 2gm weight won't give an accurate ppm result (but that isn't my point - my point is consistency between brews - 2 g should equal 2g more easily than 1 tsp = 1 tsp and the moisture absorption won't be affected by what you use to measure) but it won't be less accurate than a tsp measure by default.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

If that's true, how would a teaspoon (presumably prone to the same) be any more accurate? Maybe a 2gm weight won't give an accurate ppm result (but that isn't my point - my point is consistency between brews - 2 g should equal 2g more easily than 1 tsp = 1 tsp and the moisture absorption won't be affected by what you use to measure) but it won't be less accurate than a tsp measure by default.

I agree, i always measure my salt additions with scales, 0.01g accuracy.
It gives a lot more control over repeatably that's for sure, as you said earlier you can get a decent set for pretty cheap these days.

I keep my salts very well sealed, so i am not too worried about weighing absorbed moisture.

 

[Deebo]

Can anyone recommend somewhere to get a Good Filter? (not sure if I want to go full RO or just use a bit of carbon to make the water taste a bit better)