Water Chemistry Question

[dent]

If that's true, how would a teaspoon (presumably prone to the same) be any more accurate? Maybe a 2gm weight won't give an accurate ppm result (but that isn't my point - my point is consistency between brews - 2 g should equal 2g more easily than 1 tsp = 1 tsp and the moisture absorption won't be affected by what you use to measure) but it won't be less accurate than a tsp measure by default.

I find if I leave some CaCl2 crystals around eventually they collect so much water to form a puddle of liquid around them, related to time and presumably humidity - that will be what stuffs the consistency. Water is pretty heavy. Also interesting (and irrelevant) to note how much heat anhydrous crystals will generate as you dissolve them in water as a fairly concentrated solution - 100g in 500ml water will actually get pretty hot. I made this solution for my water additions after getting tired of smashing my moist CaCl2 crystals apart.

I agree it is splitting hairs and not at all important though.

 

[eamonnfoley]

To quote from "Brewing Better Beer" by Gordon Strong,

"If you are measuring using teaspoons instead of gram scales, then you can use the following approximations when trying to hit certain a ion concentration:

CaS04 adds about 59ppm Ca and 141ppm SO4 per tsp (in 5 gallons)
CaCO3 adds about 38ppm CA and 57 ppm CO3 per tsp (in 5 gallons)
CaCl2 adds about 61ppm CA and 107ppm Cl2 per tsp (in 5 gallons)"

He goes onto to explain they are not completely accurate due to how finely ground the salts are, moisture, etc, etc, but it will get you in the ballpark. And that's all you need with a water profile. I doubt a beer with 100ppm SO4 will taste any different to one with 150ppm. On CYBI they never seem to get info on amounts of salts added to the recipes, but they so often nail them because they know roughly what water profile to aim for.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I used to feel that way about Chalk to, but will add a caveat, have had a couple of long hard discussions with Gough (Shawn) about his Wild Thing Imperial Stout, mate I was way wrong on that one, Chalk makes a big difference to beers with a shed load of Roast and other dark malt/grain in them.
The difference being like a barbwire pull-through verses silky smooth.
Its worth having a look at the interrelation between Carbonate and Phosphate and the role that plays in mash pH, but only for very dark beers.
Otherwise, complete waste of time adding chalk.
MHB

Funnily enough - i think the wild thing has a detectable and unpleasant carbonate taste (have glass in hand as I type to make sure memory is not faulty) Its a great beer, but IMO it would be better without, or with significantly less of, the carbonates. It certainly makes a difference to dark beers - but not one that i think is good. Its just that dark beers are able to carry that profile without being bloody horrible; and bugger all else can.

Perhaps they can be used to make a dark beer smoother - but I think its going to take a dab hand to make that true without also spoiling the beer with the carbonates themselves. I think malt choice can do everything for smoothness that salt additions can, and not have things taste like they were made from crappy bore water.

 

[Dazza88]

I wish to brew a bo pils today (Wey bo pils, a little carapils, wheat and Saaz, s189), bought some RO water (one of those nabropure self serve dispensers) and plan going 75% RO to 25% north brissy Tap. It appears i need CaCl2 but i dont have it.

Q1. Can u get CaCl2 easily from a chemist etc? I won't be driving to Craftbrewer etc today.

Q2. Why is CaCl2 addition suggested to get Ca to 25 ppm for pils (net reading) when pilsen water profiles (brew software) say 7ppm?

Q3. Higher concern - getting Ca up or keeping suphate low?

Q4. If i used gypsum, and higher sulphates, can i partially counteract this by dropping ibus a little?

My cals tell me the water mix will give (Pil ref in brackets):


Ca - 6.25 (7)
SO4 - 11.5 (5)
Mg - 2.5 (2)
Na - 8 (2)
Cl - 15 (5)
Carb (co3?) - 25 (15)

This is based on RO having 0 and brisbane water from BABBS nomograph default levels (i.e divide Bris levels by 4).

So i seem to be close with this water to pils but my reading suggest the need to get Ca to 25 ish.

I have gypsum, but reading tells me not to add that to keep suphate down in such a beer.

My wife is hitting the chemist now to ask for CaCl2, otherwise i think i will leave out the salt additions.

Any advice appreciated.

 

[manticle]

Calcium is good for things like yeast health and getting good mash efficiency. Chloride is good at pushing malt profile. If you are aiming for reasonably stylistically accurate (according to the ol' bjcp anyway) bo-pils then sulphate bitterness is out of place - you want soft bitterness (still pronounced) to complement the malt profile.

That's my understanding. Still a complex topic that I don't feel completely confident in my level of knowledge so hope that helps.

 

[Dazza88]

That's a good summary, thx manticle.

Calcium chloride for next time then.

 

[clarkey7]

Dazdog,

The BABBs nomograph is very out of date. We'll be working on that soon.

The latest yearly avg 2010-2011 numbers for Brisbane are below:

Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Alkalinity as CaCO3 Sodium (ppm) Chloride (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Water pH
24 10 70 34 49 40 7.8

From here: Qld Urban Utilities Water Quality Data

I would just brew it without the salts this time. If you're really worried about calcium add a small amount of Gypsum to your mash and proceed, but understand your adding SO4.
The higher concern is mash pH, then having enough calcium, but for Pilsen water - not a biggy, in fact sources conflict a lot for water profiles, but near distilled H2O is always used to describe pilsen water.

Your mash pH (and final beer pH) will be fine with your brisbane water cut with RO in the dilution you described with the bo pils grist. Palmers latest spreadsheet with the latest brisbane water figures in a 75% dilution with RO plugged in says your RA = 14, Ca = 6ppm).

If you added 1 g of gypsum to a 13L strike water mash your calcium goes up to 25ppm with a -1 RA, but the sulphate goes to 53...Cl 12 - your call.

Good luck...Water to sparge is the same dilution ??

Dunno about sourcing CaCl2.

PB

I wish to brew a bo pils today (Wey bo pils, a little carapils, wheat and Saaz, s189), bought some RO water (one of those nabropure self serve dispensers) and plan going 75% RO to 25% north brissy Tap. It appears i need CaCl2 but i dont have it.

Q1. Can u get CaCl2 easily from a chemist etc? I won't be driving to Craftbrewer etc today.

Q2. Why is CaCl2 addition suggested to get Ca to 25 ppm for pils (net reading) when pilsen water profiles (brew software) say 7ppm?

Q3. Higher concern - getting Ca up or keeping suphate low?

Q4. If i used gypsum, and higher sulphates, can i partially counteract this by dropping ibus a little?

My cals tell me the water mix will give (Pil ref in brackets):


Ca - 6.25 (7)
SO4 - 11.5 (5)
Mg - 2.5 (2)
Na - 8 (2)
Cl - 15 (5)
Carb (co3?) - 25 (15)

This is based on RO having 0 and brisbane water from BABBS nomograph default levels (i.e divide Bris levels by 4).

So i seem to be close with this water to pils but my reading suggest the need to get Ca to 25 ish.

I have gypsum, but reading tells me not to add that to keep suphate down in such a beer.

My wife is hitting the chemist now to ask for CaCl2, otherwise i think i will leave out the salt additions.

Any advice appreciated.

 

[Nick JD]

Plzen water.

Ca++= 10ppm
Mg++= 3ppm
Na+ = 3ppm
HCO3- = 3ppm
SO4- = 4ppm
Cl- = 4ppm

 

[dr K]

Generally speaking salt additions are not going to make too much difference, on balance, unless you overdo it in which case there will be a negative thing happening.
Calcium is the big one and rule of thumb is sulphate for hop, chloride for malt/smooth and carbonate to reduce astringency from roasts.
Thirsty Boy hits the nail on the head about overuse of Calcium Carbonate (chalk) in the final beer.
I ahve had excellent results following kai troesters method of dissoling Calcium Carbonate in carbonated water before use, rather tha trustin g the mash pH, but beter results by not mashing roasted grains at all, indeed I have gone so far as not mashing crystal grains either, the sparge picks up everything you want and nothing you don't!

K

 

[manticle]

dr K - do you mean adding dark/roast grains late into the mash or with the sparge?

I have been experimenting with steeping roast grains cold overnight, bringing that slowly to mash temp (so as to not to throw out temps) then adding in at last step (either end of mash/mashout or 72 glycoprotein rest). No need for carbonate additions and seems to have a very smooth result. Need to do it more often to know for sure but got another lot steeping at the moment for my third crack at this method.

 

[Brewers Choice]

Hi all. If you are in need of any of the Brewing salts, they are in stock at the Brewers Choice Enoggera store (07 3855 8800).

Current stock includes:
Calcium Sulphate

Calcium Chloride

Magnesium Sulphate

Calcium Carbonate

The other Brewers Choice stores will carry these items as well.

All items also available at the webshop at http://www.brewerschoice.com.au/online-sho...-additives.html

 

[dr K]

dr K - do you mean adding dark/roast grains late into the mash or with the sparge?

With the sparge
the advantage of this method (and its far from perfect) is that you do no not have to complicate your mash salt additions by compensating for the wide range of acidity and acridity that roast garins may add
i would probably add calcium chloride (this is a dark beer) to about 200ppm, quite a bit really to the mash (just chuck it in with the cracked grain, and yes, my addition would cover both mash and sparge and just before sparge add the milled roast on top of the bed and sparge through, for a slightly more complex flavour profiile (in this dark beer) it may help to mash a small amount of pale chocolate

K

 

[RdeVjun]

With the sparge
the advantage of this method (and its far from perfect) is that you do no not have to complicate your mash salt additions by compensating for the wide range of acidity and acridity that roast garins may add
i would probably add calcium chloride (this is a dark beer) to about 200ppm, quite a bit really to the mash (just chuck it in with the cracked grain, and yes, my addition would cover both mash and sparge and just before sparge add the milled roast on top of the bed and sparge through, for a slightly more complex flavour profiile (in this dark beer) it may help to mash a small amount of pale chocolate

Did just this today, pretty much word for word except for the pale choc, made life very simple and worked rather efficiently, so thanks K. :icon_cheers:

Probably f*cked it though by foolishly bunging that hot wort in a no- chill cube, some old habits do die hard...

 

[Dazza88]

Thank you to all who replied to my questions, particularly pocket beers.