Water Additions For Bohemian Pilsener

[Bribie G]

Ok - telegraphing my punches for this years forthcoming comp season but:

This is driving me nuts trying to find reliable information, does anyone have any suggestions about the precise salt additions to bring 33L of RO / Distilled water into line with Plzen water? Most info out there seems to be on US sites who suggest adding "Kosher Salts" or 35 grains of Schneiderpoofers old fashioned Philadelphia salts whatever. :huh:

Any advice appreciated as I don't want to add too much mineral, but don't want the thing falling over due to lack of calcium. :icon_cheers:

 

[schooey]

From notes I have jotted down, Pilsen water is very soft. This is the profile I have saved in the EZ water sheet that I use;

Calcium (ppm):
10

Sulfates (ppm):
5

Magnesium (ppm):
2

Sodium (ppm):
2

Chloride (ppm):
5

Carbonates (ppm):
15

I'm not that ofay with RO water... does it strip it back to bare? If so I guess it's just a matter of adding salts in the calculator to get to those numbers.

 

[DanRayner]

My Promash water profiler says you need bugger-all but here it is:

the "target" water is for Plzen (stored-in/provided-by Promash) and "your water" I just left blank cos I figured distilled would have nothing in it?

I'm not 100% whether you'd want to put this in your mash (I would think you would - for enzyme conversion) or your boil - or actually, you'd probably want it for both; you need it in the mash water but at the same time you don't want to dilute that out when you prep for the boil.

So maybe make up enough for the mash and then add more to the boil based on the volume of new distilled water you add to the boil (do you BIABers add more water?)

cheers!

Dan

EDIT: Schooey's values are a little different but even so that would not be a lot of salts for the total. Say, as a BIABer, you do single batch sparge with 30L all up in the mash/boil (22L for the boil plus 8L locked up in the grain).

Then you'd need the following (spread out between water in the mash and then any extra water added but for a total of 30L):

Salt added Dan/Promash Schooey
Gypsum: 0.25g
Epsom salts: 0.08g
Table salt: 0.23g
Calcium Carb: 0.37g or 0.71g

the extra amount for Schooey brings the carbonates and calcium content up to Schooey's estimate.

maybe you could just do a mix of distilled and undistilled tap waters to get the right content?

 

[bconnery]

Ok - telegraphing my punches for this years forthcoming comp season but:

This is driving me nuts trying to find reliable information, does anyone have any suggestions about the precise salt additions to bring 33L of RO / Distilled water into line with Plzen water? Most info out there seems to be on US sites who suggest adding "Kosher Salts" or 35 grains of Schneiderpoofers old fashioned Philadelphia salts whatever. :huh:

Any advice appreciated as I don't want to add too much mineral, but don't want the thing falling over due to lack of calcium. :icon_cheers:

According to a quick play in beersmith around 0.5gms of Epsom Salts, Calcium Chloride and Baking Soda would get you close...

 

[Fourstar]

3g of CaCl2 is what i would add to the mash and nothing more. Just enough to the some calcium up there for enzyme activiy and some yeast health. Its all about keeping soft malt and hops, avoid sulfates at all costs.

KISS approach if you ask me.

 

[Bribie G]

Thanks guys, that looks brilliant, the figures all seem to be in similar range. I'll dissolve all the salts in the initial water as I'm doing a German Hochkurz mash ( stepped mash that brings the temp up in stages by boiling water additions) so I'll be starting with a fairly thickish mash (compared to normal BIAB) anyway. :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers: :icon_cheers:

Edit: just got 4*s post.
Being RO water then no further Chlorides, Carbonates etc required?

 

[WarmBeer]

Being RO water then no further Chlorides, Carbonates etc required?

My understanding is that RO water has pretty much no salts in it at all. This will adversely affect both your conversion and your yeast health.

As Fourstar mentioned, 3 gm of CaCl₂ should provide the required calcium for both of these. Other trace elements such as magnesium, sodium will still be pretty much missing altogether from the water, but the grain will provide these.

In best Mary Poppins voice - "Just a teaspoon of CaCl helps the gravity go down, gravity go down, gravity go down".

 

[DanRayner]

Edit: just got 4*s post.
Being RO water then no further Chlorides, Carbonates etc required?

Chlorides increase bitterness, stability and clarity of beer. At higher levels* gives pleasant, round and full sweetness to beer. Can also inhibit yeast flocculation.

Carbonate at high levels* extracts excessive hops flavour (often masked by heavier beers)

Sulfate gives very sharp, dry full flavour to beer. Coupled with sodium* gives a noticeable harshness

Magnesium is essential for yeast metabolism. In small amounts increases beer flavour. In excess amounts*, gives strong bitter flavour

Calcium at proper levels, required by yeast. Helps to maximise extraction of bitter flavours from hops and assists in clarification, stability, and flavour of beer. In excess*, can remove essential yeast nutrients from wort and cause haze.

Sodium at normal levels increase flavour of beer, giving a "round smoothness". Coupled with sulfate*, will give an unpleasant harshness.

*Presumably at much higher levels than we are talking about.

Janson, L.W. 1996. Brew Chem 101. ISBN-13 978-0-88266-940-3

 

[dent]

Personally I think actually checking the mash pH more useful than simply adding various salts and hoping everything turns out OK - especially with RO water since much of what you read (as fas as recipes go) is based on varying degrees of tapwater. The existing (or non-existing!) calcium and carbonates will make a pretty big difference to the pH buffering in the mash.

I use a small amount (20% or so) of tapwater for "trace" ions and buffering capacity, with the rest RO, along with CaCl2 to adjust the pH as required. The other ions generally offer qualities you don't prefer in your Bo Pils.

 

[Bribie G]

Dent, I should also mention that I'm using 100g of acidulated malt as well as an "insurance" but the inclusion of a couple of litres or so of tap water makes sense - seeing as there'll be SFA salts going in there to affect the pH greatly - not too much tap water but just for those trace ions like arsenic or canetodium etc in the local Bribie water :icon_cheers:

 

[TidalPete]

:icon_offtopic:

Sent the missus out to find some Calcium Carbonate & she came back empty-handed. Does anyone know if blackboard chalk is a good source of CaCO3 percentage-wise or should I keep looking for a local source?
Sorry for the hijack Bribie. :icon_cheers:

TP

 

[Bribie G]

No I think blackboard "chalk" is totally diff.
When do you need it? I'll post you a wee ziplock today.

 

[DanRayner]

:icon_offtopic:

Sent the missus out to find some Calcium Carbonate & she came back empty-handed. Does anyone know if blackboard chalk is a good source of CaCO3 percentage-wise or should I keep looking for a local source?
Sorry for the hijack Bribie. :icon_cheers:

TP

Ironically, blackboard chalk has no actual chalk (calcium carbonate) in it at all - it's calcium sulfate which, in a hydrous form, is the same as gypsum.

Our wonderful sponsor Craftbrewer has calcium carbonate (as well as all your other salt needs) for sale; around half a kilo for $7

 

[TidalPete]

No I think blackboard "chalk" is totally diff.
When do you need it? I'll post you a wee ziplock today.

Thanks anyway mate but I need it tomorrow morning. Don't suppose you run a courier service?
Any idea where I can obtain some apart from the above sponsers?

TP

PS --- Just saw your post DR. Many thanks but not enough time to get here.

 

[Bribie G]

When does your postie come generally?

 

[Fourstar]

No I think blackboard "chalk" is totally diff.
When do you need it? I'll post you a wee ziplock today.

I'm sure the boys in blue will be interested to hear of a suspicious white powder in a small coin baggie being mailed across the state.

Buy up all from craft brewer and you'll have enough salts to last you 2 years!

Also, i forgot to note that yes, mine was assuming a small amount of local water was added back. Even if its 1-2L it should suffice. Only problem is if you don't know your water profile, you have no idea what you are starting with.

 

[Paul H]

When does your postie come generally?

After he is aroused

:icon_cheers:

Paul

 

[Bribie G]

After he is aroused

:icon_cheers:

Paul

Pete has a female postie and it happens when Mrs Pete aint looking :icon_cheers:

It's my thread and I'll derail it if I want to.



on topic, ended up using 3L town and 3g Calcium Chloride

OOps beepers gone off for end of Maltose Rest, gotta go.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks anyway mate but I need it tomorrow morning. Don't suppose you run a courier service?
Any idea where I can obtain some apart from the above sponsers?

TP

PS --- Just saw your post DR. Many thanks but not enough time to get here.

TP You could use baking soda if you are stuck (watching the sodium) for alkalinity if that is what you need.

 

[DanRayner]

Thanks anyway mate but I need it tomorrow morning. Don't suppose you run a courier service?
Any idea where I can obtain some apart from the above sponsers?

TP

PS --- Just saw your post DR. Many thanks but not enough time to get here.

Yates Garden Lime is calcium carbonate but I'm not sure if that's all it is :blink:

TP You could use baking soda if you are stuck (watching the sodium) for alkalinity if that is what you need.

That might raise the sodium in the brew to an unacceptable level... maybe?