RO water and harsh bitterness

[wide eyed and legless]

Rainwater is typically 5.6 pH if you ran your water through the RO unit into 60 litre drums, in the hydroponic shops you can buy a 'pH up' and 'pH down' solution adjust your pH to 5.6 using the pH down and just brew as you were doing before using the RO unit.

 

[seamad]

Say if my mash ph is close to on target @ 5.5ish @ room temp.

I'm aiming for 107L pre boil into my kettle.

Finish sparging with runnings at 1.008.

But only have 67L wort @ 5.5ph in the kettle.

To get to my desired pre boil volume and gravity I have to add 40L of RO water that's @ 7.5 ph.

Isn't the extra 40L of RO water going to dilute the concentration of hydrogen atoms thus raising the ph?

40L out is a pretty big error, I'd be looking at why and fixing
I'd also finish sparging at 1.010 at the most.
Add some acid to your total sparge water to adjust pH 5.5 ( at sparge temp ), then when you finish sparging at 1.010 you can add the leftover sparge water to the kettle to get your preboil volume correct.
Also check your pH of finished beer is around 4-4.5

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Isnt it as simple as adding tiny bit of Citric Acid to the top up water to match the wort PH. ~5.5.
Clear water you can messure that with an Aquarium type liquid PH test rather than an expensive probe.
Your wort and grav and top up levels confuse me too. :unsure: Are you making light beer?

 

[rockeye84]

40L out is a pretty big error, I'd be looking at why and fixing
I'd also finish sparging at 1.010 at the most.
Add some acid to your total sparge water to adjust pH 5.5 ( at sparge temp ), then when you finish sparging at 1.010 you can add the leftover sparge water to the kettle to get your preboil volume correct.
Also check your pH of finished beer is around 4-4.5

Not trying to be rude but please explain how to hit my target volume with sparging alone when my runnings hit 1.008 with only 2/3 the volume I need?

My mash efficiency is up around 90% so I'm not leaving much behind in the grain bed, so I don't class 40L top up as an error.

 

[rockeye84]

Isnt it as simple as adding tiny bit of Citric Acid to the top up water to match the wort PH. ~5.5.
Clear water you can messure that with an Aquarium type liquid PH test rather than an expensive probe.
Your wort and grav and top up levels confuse me too. :unsure: Are you making light beer?

The simple answer I was looking for. But is it that simple?
You practice this method?
Citric acid over lactic?
Yeh pale ales and pilsners. Round 4% alc.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Hate to state the obvious, but test the pH of your RO water. Test the pH of your grannies rain water and compare. This will likely give you your starting issue. As has been stated by many already on this topic, your bitterness may have to do with astringency because of pH at mash, rather than the pH at boil.

By the way concrete takes a while to be eaten by rain water (and why would you be puting RO water in concrete I don't know). Concrete rain water tanks, and many other factors in rain water systems tend to neutralise pH in rain water from 5.6 up closer to 7. Falling from the sky, 5.6 maybe, landing on galv or tiled roofs then into the dirty gutters then into the dirty tanks = increase in pH.

EDIT - you state your pH meter is broken, but then talk about using your pH test strips. USE the test strips to test your water. Better than nothing.

 

[wynnum1]

The product of reverse osmosis is very pure water, with very low levels of minerals in it. It doesn't taste very good in that condition and it's a very aggressive solvent that can cause pipes to deteriorate. Reverse osmosis water is 'potabilised' by adding lime and carbon dioxide. This makes it more stable, restores the normal taste and ensures that it's healthy to drink.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Water aint just water. I'm glad to have my water on tap.
I still haven't beaten the best beers made in the past with just Melbourne tap water with nothing added. Through kits to all grain now I'm fussing with filtered water and additive adjustments. Cant help myself but I must just do a brew with tap water and not tamper at all. That's harder than it sounds.

 

[rockeye84]

Using my tap water is not an option. 850ppm TDS. Harder than Burton on Trent! It's RO or rainwater.

Once my new ph meter arrives guna dial in mash and boil ph with acid to try resolve my bitterness issue.

If that don't work, looks like I'm in the market for w rainwater tank.

 

[dicko]

I would concentrate on Mash PH and if that is correct not be overconcerned with boil PH.

Many brewers including micros use RO water without incident and with good results so it is a fair assumption that either your unit is faulty or you are adding unnecessary salts somewhere in your process.
I have a rainwater tank made of steel and an RO unit and I get the same result with which ever water I use.
I have the RO as the rain water tank is only a small one and can run low in dry weather.

Another thought I had while brewing myself is....do you have your weighing scales set to gramms?
I have a set of scales I bought off the internet and they have a choice of calibration, gramms, ounces and a couple of other choices as well. I scrolled through the choices with massive differences being the result.

On reflection of this problem, I don't think anyone can provide any more assumed reasons or a definitive answer unless you are able to post up your complete recipe details and procedures relating to the brew in question.

Cheers

 

[wynnum1]

What about a percentage of tap water added to ro water to put some mineral back in the water.

 

[rockeye84]

Yeh got a good set of scales, cheers for all the help any way everyone, ill give it one more shot once the PH meter arrives.

If I'm still getting nowhere ill be back.

 

[dicko]

Yeh got a good set of scales, cheers for all the help any way everyone, ill give it one more shot once the PH meter arrives.

If I'm still getting nowhere ill be back.

Yes, good luck with it mate.

I know what it is like to live in an area where the town water is so bad even the toilet spits it back when you use it to flush. :lol: :lol: h34r:

 

[TheWiggman]

... water is there? What's the pH of the RO water? I'm not sure how you could possibly...

... colours over in my sleep I wouldn't know. Test your RO water pH and it should be a bit less than your tap water pH...

Hate to state the obvious, but test the pH of your RO water...

Please!!!!!!!

 

[mabrungard]

90% efficiency? When I started getting into that range, I also had a harshness in my beers. It turned out that I was leaching tannins and silicates from the grainbed at the end of the runoff. Even though I was stopping runoff at 1.008, I was still getting the tannins and silicates which are harsh. I now stop runoff around 1.012 and I run less of my sparging water volume through the bed. I use the remaining sparging water to bring my pre-boil volume to my targeted volume. That approach solved my harshness. Maybe that's your issue too?

Remember, efficiency is meaningless if the end product isn't pleasing!

Another thing to be concerned with is the amount of volume loss your boil produces. If you are ending the boil with more than 10 to 15 percent of the volume lost, then its possible that you are over-concentrating the mineral content of your water.

Finally, pH strips are virtually useless in brewing. Their accuracy is never good and the wort color can also play with the reading. I would hope that your wort pH was much lower than 6.5 and it should have been if you are using RO water and salts such as gypsum and calcium chloride. It would be impossible for the pH to be that high under those conditions since all grains naturally buffer themselves to a pH of about 5.8 or lower in a distilled water solution.

 

[TheWiggman]

Mash efficiency, not brewhouse there Martin.

 

[rockeye84]

Cheers for the info mabrungard, will take into consideration.

Doing another batch tomorrow, ph meter is here, will be keeping a close eye on ph levels throughout brew day.

Will let yaz know how I go.

 

[rockeye84]

Solved! Closely Followed ph start to finish, added acid to sparge, top up water and pre boil to keep ph within recommended ranges. post boil 5.2@room temp. Horrible harsh shitty bitterness gone.