Vic 2017 Xmas in July Case Swap

Discussion in 'Events, Meetups & Pub Crawls' started by idzy, 5/12/15.

 

  1. droid

    somewhere on the slippery slope with a beer in han

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    Posted 4/9/17
    ^word
    Hey I just ordered some WLP 500 monastery so will transfer beer to keg with some light candi syrup and the yeast, put me dooveelacker PSI venting thing on and let it go. Was thinking 12 psi as the relief set point?? It will be cellar temp..?
     
  2. technobabble66

    Meat Popsicle

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    Posted 4/9/17
    My Mongrel has been going for 4 days on a WLP-022 (Essex Ale) yeast cake, set to 18°C for the first 2 days, then 19°C for last 2.
    Already down to :eek: SG=1.014.
    Tasting mighty fine.
    Thinking i'll go down the (D)IPA path & hop the bejesus out of it.
    I'll wait for the yeast to finish & drop a little first to get a better taste for it before deciding; but it's tasting more like an IPA base than an Old Ale.
    ... Though maybe i'll look at splitting some off & minikegging it with an EKG keg-hop when i transfer the majority to the 2nd FV for CC-ing & dry hopping.



    PS: (@laxation), this was drained straight onto the 022 yeast cake after it'd chewed through 3 previous beers.
    I generally haven't worried about the overpitching thing as i do tend to slowly ascend in OG of the consecutive beers and i'm normally keen to the cleaner drier finish the consecutive full-cake pitches produce. The reasoning i adhere to is based on the idea that most of the flavour components from a yeast develop in the first 24hrs from the reproduction of the yeast, not from the actual fermentation phase itself. So if you want a lot of flavour from the yeast, it's best to under pitch (as Mofox mentioned). Similarly, if you want less, then a higher pitch is better. Also, stress can encourage the formation of flavour compounds, both good and bad, so other factors like temperature, nutrients, etc can come into play. So it can depend on whether you want lots, some, a little or no flavour impact from your yeast as to what is best in those parameters for each beer.
    Given this is an English yeast and i'm keen to get a some flavour/aroma elements from it, i'd maybe consider a reduced yeast size &/or ferment a little higher in temp. OTOH, as this is a super strong beer, i generally find the treatment to get some esters going in a lower strength beer produces too much in a bigger beer - either there's too much ester production or simply in such a big beer the "regular" amount of esters become too cloying. So basically i decided i wanted a cleaner fermentation and the yeasties would still reproduce a little given the significant step up in OG, so i went with keeping the yeast cake as is & fermenting at 18°C. Which luckily coincided with my laziness to just think fuck it and empty the cube straight onto it.
    The other info i keep in mind is that i've read a few threads on here where some of the more experienced and respected brewers have stated they basically have never had problems with overpitching. Sorry, that's a pretty lame bit of evidence & justification, but i don't have it bookmarked, etc.



    PPS: found this from my notes when a started brewing back in 2012, maybe it'll help someone:

    Yeast Info
    from video: !

    White Labs (Neva Parker presenting)

    Lower pitching rate/amount = higher growth rate (ie: more proliferation/multiplying of yeast cells. Because the small # of cells need to multiply like crazy in the large wort mass, whereas a high pitch rate means there's already lots of cells, so less growth/proliferation is required)

    So "Growth Rate" is the same as "proliferation rate"

    Higher O2 levels => higher growth rate
    Higher growth rate => higher level of metabolic activity overall in wort.
    Higher Metabolic Activity => higher (yeast) flavour byproducts (esters, fusels)
    Higher OG => higher metabolic byproducts (fusels, esters)
    Higher temp => higher esters & fusels

    Esters are produced via acetylCoA in the non-growth phase. AcetylCoA is used in growth, then when growth stops it diverted towards ester production.
    Most flavour compounds are produced in the first 48hrs (after growth phase?). After that, the yeast is generally "cleaning up" diacetyls & acetylaldehydes, etc.

    ~8-10ppm O2 = optimum for yeast growth. Results in lower FG, better metabolic activity.
    Can take ~20min w an airstone & aquarium air pump

    So,
    High pitching rate -> Low acetylaldehyde, low fusels, high esters
    High O2 -> High acetylaldehyde, high fusels, low esters.

    Under pitching = strong yeast flavour produced.
    Over-pitching = v clean, reduced yeast flavour.


    Nutrients
    Nitrogen - generally not needed unless using many adjuncts. Can use DAP to give nitrogen
    Zinc - Dead yeast or zinc sulfate. Zn is used in an enzyme to convert acetylaldehyde to ethanol. Can generally be important/insufficient***
    Other Minerals - Mg, etc. Generally not needed

    Neva's fav yeasts:
    WL020 - amber ale yeast
    Edinburgh? - v versatile
    Platinum, 510 - Belgium strain, clean, low ester, tart acidic finish.

    White Labs = 1.5-2 billion cells per vial.


    EDIT: NB: ~10mins in Neva starts talking about those factors affecting yeast, ~18:30 she summarises these points and explains how acetylaldehyde, fusels and esters are affected.
    FWIW, my explanation at the start is a little wrong - fusel and ester production is somewhat inversely related for pitching rate & O2.
     
    Last edited: 4/9/17
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  3. laxation

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 4/9/17
    Thanks for that, great info.

    Bit confused by higher O2 = more fusels though... I thought aerating the wort reduced them?

    If going straight on top of the cake, do you still aerate the wort (with a paint mixer on a drill) or does the yeast not appreciate/need that?
     
  4. technobabble66

    Meat Popsicle

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    Posted 4/9/17
    Definitely aerate the wort. Helps reinvigorate the yeast, and generally there'll be a little growth (replacing dead yeasties, etc) anyway.

    Yeah, i know what you mean, re: O2 aiding more fusels.
    Watch the video in the link. I'm 99% certain i've transcribed it correctly, partly because it sounded counter-intuitive to me at the time as well. :D
    I think MHB or Lyrebird might've partially covered this (LC, i think) - the oxygen actually is primarily involved in formation of cell wall components (sterols?) that greatly aid the resilience/health of the yeast as they progress through the fermentation and have to deal with increasing levels of alcohol (which is generally toxic to living cells, yeast is just able to tolerate it to some extent (and so uses it to out-compete other organisms)).
    Linked to this is that the state of health of the yeast can alter the type of esters/fusels being produced. The idea being that the healthier the yeast, the more desirable the esters/fusels being produced, and vice versa. So the "unclean" elements are (partially) from undesirable fusels (i.e.: not just all fusels).
    So through this aspect, the O2 does encourage growth and hence produces more fusels, but at the same time the yeast is healthier so the fusels produced are the more desirable ones.
    (NB: i believe this is the way it works ;)).
    This then combines with those other factors, e.g.: temp/nutrient/underpitch, to result in the overall quality & volume of production of yeast derived flavour/aroma compounds.
     
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  5. Midnight Brew

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 4/9/17
    1.5-3 billion cells per ml. Each vial/pack is made to contain over 100 billion cells. Wyeast is different again but used to be 25ml of yeast with the rest being the smack-able pack, so 4 billion cells per ml.*

    Great summary of the video by the way:cheers:

    *been a while since I have had to purchase yeast. Freezing rocks.
     
    Last edited: 5/9/17
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  6. TheWiggman

    Haters' gonna hate

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    Posted 4/9/17
    Over 100 billion cells ;)
     
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  7. malt junkie

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 4/9/17
    Take it easy on him, probably only halfway through the first coffee, we all know it's 3 cups (buckets in my case) to start!
     
  8. technobabble66

    Meat Popsicle

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    Posted 6/9/17
    Mongrel now down to 1.008 :confused:
    I think that means the WLP-022 is hitting ~84% attenuation :what:
    Tastes great at the moment straight out of the FV. Hopefully it's finished - I'll be a little concerned if it drops any further!
     
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  9. Midnight Brew

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 6/9/17
    Beast! I don't think its go that far if you top crop, unless a low mash temp was used.
     
  10. TheWiggman

    Haters' gonna hate

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    Posted 9/9/17
    [​IMG]
    Thick tan crema-like head and not exactly jet black, more deep auburn with dark red up against the light but still very dark. It's inviting to look at [as a stout drinker]. Smells damn good: it's roasty, English, mildy hoppy with a hint of other malt character mixing it up from a cup of charcoal. It's hard to explain but it tastes how it smells. It's well brewed, full in the glass but I wouldn't pick it as 1.023 or whatever it finished at. Bitterness and ABV are well matched in spite of Mofox's late EKG addition. Pleasent, ballsy stout drinking. Still needs a bit of age to shine buts it's a good drop regardless. Not sure what else to say, decent beer and worth the effort. Cheers lads.
    [Go bombers.] - NOT EDITED OUT.
     
    Last edited: 9/9/17
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  11. DJ_L3ThAL

    Such rapp, very bass

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    Posted 9/9/17
    You need to edit that last bit out....
     
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  12. AJ80

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 11/9/17
    Massive thanks to JB for babysitting my cube since the swap. Bottled a pale Aussie lager tonight and dropped the stout directly onto the cake (S-189). Am interested to see how it turns out. Smelled fantastic coming out of the cube.
     
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  13. laxation

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 11/9/17
    how does a stout turn out on a lager yeast?
     
  14. Mardoo

    Noob What Craps On A Bit

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    Posted 11/9/17
    Essentially as a Baltic Porter.

    Edit: It would just come out a little cleaner, meaning few esters to deal with, as long as you paid attention to lager yeast fermentation regimes. I myself prefer the ale yeasts on stouts. That said though, I have a few experimental cubes I want to ferment on lager yeast to get a better picture of exactly what the malt bill brings. I may be talking out my ass, but experience and research tell me otherwise. The lower mouth is very persuasive though...
     
    Last edited: 12/9/17
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  15. technobabble66

    Meat Popsicle

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    Posted 13/9/17
    Fwiw, in my very limited experience, the toasty elements come out more in a lager, especially the harsher astringent elements.
    Again, my experience is limited, so maybe I just haven't tried the right recipes. And maybe the overall strength of the stout will compensate.
     
  16. technobabble66

    Meat Popsicle

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    Posted 13/9/17
    Back to me,
    My Mongrel seems to have stopped at FG=1.006 (!!!).
    Should I be worried about the yeast?
    Looks fine, smells fine. I'm just worried that another bug might've gotten into it. I'm hoping to drain the stout onto the yeastcake tonight or tomorrow.

    Edit: the yeast is 4th generation WLP-022. Attenuation is 74-78% I think.

    Edit 2: I think that is an apparent attenuation of 92%. Seems pretty suss to me
     
    Last edited: 13/9/17
  17. Curly79

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 13/9/17
    Kegged my cube of stout tonight. Stalled at 1.020 using Vermont Ale yeast from a two step starter. Smells delicious. Can't wait to try it. Cheers and thanks for the cube!
     
  18. DJ_L3ThAL

    Such rapp, very bass

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    Posted 13/9/17
    Maybe my under attenuating yeast walked over to your place and did it?
     
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  19. DJ_L3ThAL

    Such rapp, very bass

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    Posted 13/9/17
    Ps. While the numbers suggests it's an extraordinary ferment, if it looks and tastes fine it will be fine. Unless being such an old strain only the high attenuating mutants were formed and that's what you grew in the starters? Might be same thing that happened to my Mexican lager. It'd be a shame to have this stout finish so low but you could repair it with some adjuncts perhaps if that did occur? Otherwise got any other sacrificial cubes to try first?
     
  20. technobabble66

    Meat Popsicle

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    Posted 13/9/17
    Mystery solved.
    Just cracked a stubby of the Old Gold Brick (an Old Speckled Hen clone) - which is the first beer i did with this yeast cake.
    It's definitely Belgian. Mysterious Belgian yeast.
    Probably WLP-530, though could be WLP566 (or if it was already within the slant i got from Cam, then if NFI what it could be - though i assume this isn't the case)
    M%&*#$F%&$^R!!
    Fucking Belgian yeasts!!!
    I really thought i'd nuked my FV sufficiently. Either i hadn't, or i didn't nuke my Erlenmeyer flask properly.
    Back to the fucking nuking drawing board! TBH, i'm not sure what i could've done to nuke the FV more, short of getting a new one! Similarly with the Flask. *Sigh* FML. I'll give it another crack after this and see what happens.

    Not sure where the Mystery Belgian yeast got in on the act, but somewhere prior to the first beer finishing on the yeast cake the WLP-022 has definitely been left by the wayside.
    Unfortunately, i've already done an OSH clone, a Red Ale, a Porter, and this Mongrel brew on the same yeast cake.
    On the plus side, now realising it's Belgian & it's had ~2-3 weeks to mellow a little, the OSH clone is actually tasting quite good. :D
    So hopefully the other 3 will work out quite well.
    On the slight downside, i'd be happy to try a Red, Porter & "Amber" version of the Belgian Ales, however i'd design them slightly differently to the recipes used. Also, the Porter is a first attempt at the recipe that DJ & I did together, so i was keen to see how it turned out "properly" on the WLP-022.

    Now i've realised WTF my yeast cake is, i'll adjust the dry-hopping for the Mongrel (dial it back a little to ~50g Simcoe).
    However, i've also got to decide within the next 12 hours if i want to throw the Stout onto it or not... again, while i'm quite happy/keen to do a Belgian Stout/Dark, i'm not sure i'd design the recipe the same as the one we used for the July '17 Stout...
     

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