Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[SpillsMostOfIt]

- I thought that cooling quickly post-boil helped to 'lock-in' more of the volatile hop aroma compounds from flame-out additions. Do you find the fresh hop aroma is significantly diminished by no-chilling or not?

I do. I am currently experimenting. It seems that you have to time-shift your hop additions forward (towards the end of the boil) to get that joy. How much, I do not know. Not that hard though, if you like brewing... As a first step, add hops to the cube before adding the wort.

- I thought rapid cooling helped to form a better cold-break. Am I going to have more trub losses with this method?

I've left my cuboid in the carport in cold and hot weather, tried to chill it in a body of cold water and stuck it in the coldroom at G&G. I've found that you get about the same amount of cold break in each circumstance (give or take) but when it's colder, the break forms bigger chunks and so is more noticeable. The effect on *my* beer is indistinguishable in this regard to *me*. Your trub losses may increase slightly, but in the grand scheme of things, how much does it matter?

I do not believe you are not going to make *bad* beer by nochilling, unless it kills you, in which case you don't care about a slight decrease in hop aroma...

Two-thirds of an engineering degree before realising it didn't help with my desired IT career. But, I *do* drive a car and live with a smoker.

 

[Darren]

Botulism occurs in an oxygen free environment. My earlier point about Pasteur was that you don't need an oxygen free environment for no chilling (unless you plan on long term storage), so doesn't this overcome one of the last great fear factors?

Cheers
MAH

MAH,

As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys . BTW, Pasteurs flask is effectively sealed. It is essentially an airlock.

cheers

Darren

 

[Pumpy]

MAH,

As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys . BTW, Pasteurs flask is effectively sealed. It is essentially an airlock.

cheers

Darren

Theres no Comulisms in my jerry Hic ! no Reds under the beds either

Pumpy

 

[PostModern]

MAH,

As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys . BTW, Pasteurs flask is effectively sealed. It is essentially an airlock.

cheers

Darren

Please list some organisms that are not only capable of surviving 100C but that also are immune to PSR, sodium percarbonate, phosphoric acid, bleach and iodophor. Yes, I rotate sanitisers and use two different sanitisers one after the other before filling.

 

[sah]

Wow PoMo I'm impressed with the santising regime. I thought you were relaxing with the bug paranoia a little.

Darren, I'd be happy to relax PoMo's conditions down to 80C if that helps?

regards,
Scott

 

[PostModern]

Usually just a rinse with PSR after emptying, then PSR again or percarbonate then iodophor before use. I don't sanitise my kegs very often. Just a quarterly stripdown and clean, when I remember... Darren has me slightly paranoid about the botulism in cubes thing, I admit.

 

[Darren]

PoMo,

If it not clean it doesnt matter what sanitiser you use. Breweries have reported getting pediococcus sp. hidden under the false bottom surviving the boil and spoiling beer. Plently of places to hide in most jerries

SAH, Ever measured the surface temp of your plastic jerry? It would be lucky to be 80C!!

Just as a data point, I have seen mould grow on agar that was autoclaved then poured into petri dishes under sterile laminar flow.
How could that possibly happen?

cheers

Darren

 

[sah]

Hi Darren,

I agree that nature has her way from time to time. However, the number of unfavourable "no-chill" reports has been very low.

On the temperature of the cube, I'll try and find the instrument that plugs into my multimeter that measures surface temp and report on the outside temp of the cube.

What off flavours are an indication of a pediococcus sp. infection?

regards,
Scott

 

[Darren]

Hi Darren,


What off flavours are an indication of a pediococcus sp. infection?

regards,
Scott

Stinky feet or rotten socks

 

[PostModern]

PoMo,

If it not clean it doesnt matter what sanitiser you use. Breweries have reported getting pediococcus sp. hidden under the false bottom surviving the boil and spoiling beer. Plently of places to hide in most jerries

SAH, Ever measured the surface temp of your plastic jerry? It would be lucky to be 80C!!

Just as a data point, I have seen mould grow on agar that was autoclaved then poured into petri dishes under sterile laminar flow.
How could that possibly happen?

cheers

Darren

So they can also survive in the dodgy welds in immersion chillers, in kettle ball valves, transfer hoses, etc etc etc.

I appreciate where you're coming from, Darren. I just think that the risk is much the same as chillers with the single exception of a delay between brewing and pitching. So far, I have been cycling thru about 5 cubes fairly evenly over 12 months. No infections yet (except for a lurker in one of my fermenters). Am I pushing the boundaries or what?

EDIT: never had stinkfoot smelling beer yet, either.

 

[big d]

Lifes short.Take the occasional risk and push the boundry of brewing.

Cheers
Big D

 

[Batz]

Stinky feet or rotten socks

Yukko oh the diddly oh!



That's something you wouldn't forget in a hurry :huh:

Batz

 

[blackbock]

PoMo,

If it not clean it doesnt matter what sanitiser you use. Breweries have reported getting pediococcus sp. hidden under the false bottom surviving the boil and spoiling beer. Plently of places to hide in most jerries

SAH, Ever measured the surface temp of your plastic jerry? It would be lucky to be 80C!!

My information indicates that Pediococcus will survive between 7-60C. It also needs a long time to get established, typically months and, like botulism, doesn't like oxygen. An oxygen-permeable jerry can pseudo-pasteurised is not sounding like such an ideal environment for P. to me.

 

[user 384]

As i have said many times before, Botulism is not the main worry for no-chillers and storers, its the other heat stable BEER SPOILAGE organisms that will accumulate in your jerrys .

So how often do you buy new fermenters? I presume the same comment could be made about any piece of brewing equioment that is used time and time again.

What this highlights is that you need to be careful with both your cleaning and sanitation regime to reduce the risk of infection.

No procedure, even using a chiller like a counter flow is free of the risk of infection. Personally I don't have a problem with the low level of risk of no-chilling. I use fermentors not jerry cans, and feel a lot more comfortable about being able to clean and sanitise the inside of a big bucket, which I can also visually inspect, rather than the inside of a counter flow chiller.


Cheers
MAH

 

[beerguide]

I just did my first AG and my first no chill about two weeks ago, granted I only cubed overnight as I couldn't fit my 70ltr boiler in my sink but I personally don't see any greater risk of cubing versus chilling if you approach it with a solid cleaning and sanitising plan. I soaked my cube in Starsan (full to the brim) until it was ready, then rinsed it again with a fresh Starsan solution of around 3 ltres just to be sure topped it up with worty goodness and sat it out to cool overnight. I would have left it easily a fortnight or two if needed, but I was keen to pitch.

Granted I'm no expert nor experienced but I can't see how it is any different in a sanitary and closed pasturised environment to potentially passing your wort through a cleaned chiller and pitching. Personally I think cubing provides a safer route then chilling as it is in my opinion easier to clean a cube then it is a chiller, and I'll continue to do it. If I get an infection I'll blame my cleanliness, not the cube. If I die from 'botu', so be it - sh*t happens

 

[barneyhanway]

Yawn.
This thread continues to be about infection, when the fact of the matter is all brewing techniques and brewing in general is susceptible to nasties.
This isn't the "no-sanitise" thread, so lets move on shall we?

Can we move forward with the differences I actually care about - flavour?

I've never tried a NC lager, who wants to give me some up to date feedback on the amount of DMS you are experiencing?

For my experience with NC, my palette can't discern any difference between it and a chilled beer, but I am curious about what might happen to hop profiles especially in hop driven beers with large late additions. Seems to me hop acids sitting in hot wort _should_ get progressively more bitter until the wort has cooled significantly, is anyone there actively managing it in their brewing process?

 

[beerguide]

The science would indicate that hops in hot wort should become more bitter. I can't comment on whether my process worked or not, but I adjusted my schedule to add my bittering hops at 30 mins instead of 60 mins to combat it. Although my brew wasn't a hop driven beer and the hops were low, I 'assumed' that heat + hops = bitter, so adjusted accordingly.

Could be a stroke or genius or a total stuff up, I'll find out once its bottled and conditioned.

The guy up the road that helped me with my AG has been cubing since Jesus was born, so he tells me. I've not tasted a bad beer of his - he too adds his hops later than compared to a chilling method to help combat the continued bittering due to the heat.

 

[browndog]

Yawn.
This thread continues to be about infection, when the fact of the matter is all brewing techniques and brewing in general is susceptible to nasties.
This isn't the "no-sanitise" thread, so lets move on shall we?

Can we move forward with the differences I actually care about - flavour?

I've never tried a NC lager, who wants to give me some up to date feedback on the amount of DMS you are experiencing?

For my experience with NC, my palette can't discern any difference between it and a chilled beer, but I am curious about what might happen to hop profiles especially in hop driven beers with large late additions. Seems to me hop acids sitting in hot wort _should_ get progressively more bitter until the wort has cooled significantly, is anyone there actively managing it in their brewing process?

With my latest NC beer I added 50G chinook at flame out then let it sit for 20 mins before racking straight to the fermenter and pitching another 50G chinook. That is 100G of reasonably high alpha hops and I found it didn't add to the bitterness of the beer at all. The actual recipe is in the recipes section LCPA recipe.

cheers

Browndog

 

[user 384]

I've never tried a NC lager, who wants to give me some up to date feedback on the amount of DMS you are experiencing?

None. My no chilled lagers have been tasted by a range of brewers, some professional, and no-one has identified DMS. Even Darren who has tasted my lagers has not mentioned DMS.

Cheers
MAH

 

[lucas]

With my latest NC beer I added 50G chinook at flame out then let it sit for 20 mins before racking straight to the fermenter and pitching another 50G chinook. That is 100G of reasonably high alpha hops and I found it didn't add to the bitterness of the beer at all. The actual recipe is in the recipes section LCPA recipe.

cheers

Browndog

holy crap, that's a metric shitload of a very potent hop! I hope you didnt "waste" any other hops in the brew, I doubt you'd be able to taste them through the chinook