Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[Darren]

Darren,

I find a plastic water container with the lid screwed tight is a good substitute. Come over one brew day and I'll walk you through the process if you're interested.

Hey Kai,

You would have thought that Pasteur would have though of that

cheers

Darren

 

[Hutch]

Hey Kai,

You would have thought that Pasteur would have though of that

cheers

Darren

Of course plastic wasn't available back then. Nor were Jerry-cans for that matter.
What exactly are you trying to contribute here Darren?

 

[drsmurto]

Of course plastic wasn't available back then. Nor were Jerry-cans for that matter.
What exactly are you trying to contribute here Darren?

I would love to see a poll on how many brewers with science degrees or higher advocate this process.

 

[Hutch]

I would love to see a poll on how many brewers with science degrees or higher advocate this process.

Well, Science and Engineering here.
So what would such a poll prove DS???

 

[drsmurto]

Well, Science and Engineering here.
So what would such a poll prove DS???

You are a scientist/engy and you advocate this process? Ok, so that poll may be pointless then.

From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C.

And botulism is only one part of this argument. 100C doesnt kill every bug lying in waiting, maybe 99% but that still leaves a lot behind.

I have read almost all of this thread, most of it is abuse but i did read up that part of the justification of this method was based on the fresh wort packs available. There is a big difference between the hygiene levels of a manufacturing company and some bloke in a shed. That and the fact you reuse the same cubes and are only ever sanitising in between uses.

Just like the argument between sanitising and sterilising. there is a HUGE difference.

I dont expect people to listen to me, you have ignored every bit of scientific reasoning Darren has thrown at you. It just scares me a little that too many people will jump on this site, read this thread and think its all OK. There needs to be a disclaimer at the beginning........

 

[geoffi]

Dairy products have been known to transmit botulism. I understand that fresh milk (as opposed to UHT) is pasteurised at about 70c. So it's not hot enough to prevent botulism.

Having said that, I grew up in a dairy-farming area and drank bucketloads of non-pasteurised milk and cream, as did just about everybody else...never heard of anybody getting sick because of it.

Bottom line is: there is risk in everything. Some risks are riskier than others. I'd put no-chill brewing a hell of a long way down the risk list. I'll bet it's safer than travelling by car, and waaaaay safer than riding a motorbike.


No-chill brewing...taste life on the edge!

From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C.
.

 

[troydo]

Would i be right in assuming this debate rages on due to storage of the wort for a period of time or is there still perceived problems with the cube and pitch the next day clan as well?

 

[Stuster]

There is a big difference between the hygiene levels of a manufacturing company and some bloke in a shed. That and the fact you reuse the same cubes and are only ever sanitising in between uses.

I wouldn't count on it being that different in fact.

And I suggest doing more than sanitising in between batches. I always soak the cube in napisan between uses. Cleaning is at least as important as sanitising IMO.

BTW, also have science degree and know a number of other no chillers who have too. If we have the numbers, does that make us right? :lol:

 

[Stuster]

Would i be right in assuming this debate rages on due to storage of the wort for a period of time or is there still perceived problems with the cube and pitch the next day clan as well?

More the longer term storage now I think, with the failure of the other supposed issues to occur in the real world having foiled some arguments. I think it's mainly about fishing these days though.

 

[Zizzle]

From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C.

What about the argument of hops being a great Botulism inhibitor?

 

[Hutch]

You are a scientist/engy and you advocate this process? Ok, so that poll may be pointless then.

From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to >120C to prevent botulism. i have stuck a thermometer in my boiling wort and its not even close to 120C.

And botulism is only one part of this argument. 100C doesnt kill every bug lying in waiting, maybe 99% but that still leaves a lot behind.

I have read almost all of this thread, most of it is abuse but i did read up that part of the justification of this method was based on the fresh wort packs available. There is a big difference between the hygiene levels of a manufacturing company and some bloke in a shed. That and the fact you reuse the same cubes and are only ever sanitising in between uses.

Just like the argument between sanitising and sterilising. there is a HUGE difference.

I dont expect people to listen to me, you have ignored every bit of scientific reasoning Darren has thrown at you. It just scares me a little that too many people will jump on this site, read this thread and think its all OK. There needs to be a disclaimer at the beginning........

Darren, yourself, and anyone else is perfectly entitled to disagree with the practice of NoChilling, and not use it.
...But please - to suggest that we have all "ignored every bit of scientific reasoning" thrown at us, and that Darren is the only source of "rational thinking" is arrogant, and rude to the extreme.

His continual baiting, and "scientifically holier than though" intellectual snobbery is verging on obnoxious, and is missing the point of who and why people are using the technique.

Disagree with the practice? Fine. Don't do it. Buy some copper pipe and plumb it into your tank water/pool/whatever.
Feel better about yourself for "doing what the big boys do". I've made beer this way too, and have come to MY OWN PERSONAL preference to go NC for reasons of time, water, convenience, etc. And I make perfectly drinkable beer (read this thread if you need proof).

As has been reiterated ad-nauseum, this thread is for "Users" of NC.
Some find Darren's little comments amusing. I find them tired and egotistical.
People may well jump on this site, and pick up all sorts of new ideas without understanding them - propagating and culturing yeast for one is a recipe for disaster in the wrong hands. I'd like to think that brewers reading this thread, and adopting the practice are smart enough to make up their own minds about the risk/benefit trade-off.

Enough bitching. Do what works for you, drink your own beer, and everyone's happy

 

[braufrau]

Buy some copper pipe and plumb it into your tank water/pool/whatever.
Feel better about yourself for "doing what the big boys do". I've made beer this way too, and have come to MY OWN PERSONAL preference to go NC for reasons of time, water, convenience, etc.

So Hutch .. .can I buy your chiller off you?

 

[SJW]

I dont expect people to listen to me, you have ignored every bit of scientific reasoning Darren has thrown at you. It just scares me a little that too many people will jump on this site, read this thread and think its all OK. There needs to be a disclaimer at the beginning........

I think we need to go back and read the title of this thread.......being USERS of the no chill method.
I recall that all the safety issues and diclaimers have been made known back on the original NO CHILLER thread.
But I guess if one of us dies or is in the process of a slow painfull death from some hidious disease related to NO CHILLING and dont make it onto the site in time to warn us we may never no <_<
Another reason to drop this and related no chiller threads.

 

[Hutch]

So Hutch .. .can I buy your chiller off you?

He he!
I'm holding on to it until copper is more valuable than gold. Won't be long now...

 

[braufrau]

He he!
I'm holding on to it until copper is more valuable than gold. Won't be long now...

Come on! Put your chiller where your mouth is! :lol:
I'd get HWMBO to whip one up for me but you can't get copper in 8m lengths. What would I do with the
other half of the roll?

 

[geoffi]

Yes, it's true. Beer brewed by the no-chill method contains a toxic substance that is implicated in thousands of deaths every year.

It's called alcohol.

FOOLS!!! STOP DRINKING THAT STUFF!!! DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HOW DANGEROUS IT IS?!?!

 

[Zizzle]

Wait, I've got it... the reason why the chillers still don't see the light:

Among older adults whose diets are high in saturated and trans fats, a high intake of copper may be associated with an accelerated rate of decline in thinking, learning and memory abilities, according to a report in the August issue of Archives of Neurology, one of the JAMA/Archives journals.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/...60816013125.htm

:lol:

 

[user 384]

I would love to see a poll on how many brewers with science degrees or higher advocate this process.

Post-graduate qualifications in Public Health from a Go8 university.

Cheers
MAH

 

[user 384]

From my limited research and conversations with my biology colleagues, manufacturers of food products are required to heat them up to 120C to prevent botulism.

Botulism occurs in an oxygen free environment. My earlier point about Pasteur was that you don't need an oxygen free environment for no chilling (unless you plan on long term storage), so doesn't this overcome one of the last great fear factors?

Cheers
MAH

 

[bigholty]

I'm considering going to a 'no-chill in the kettle' method on a new, larger brewery that I am assembling at the moment (I currently use an immersion chiller). I have consumed a good portion of time today scratching the surface of this thread but I still have a couple of reservations that I hope you no-chillers out there can help with:
- I thought that cooling quickly post-boil helped to 'lock-in' more of the volatile hop aroma compounds from flame-out additions. Do you find the fresh hop aroma is significantly diminished by no-chilling or not?
- I thought rapid cooling helped to form a better cold-break. Am I going to have more trub losses with this method?
- I plan to cool in the fully covered kettle, then rack to the fermenter and pitch as soon as temp is achieved. Even if some unwanted microbes get in there, won't the healthy yeast starter overrun any impending infection? I don't plan on storing the unfermented wort for any length of time.

Thanks, Mark.