Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[warrenlw63]

I am surprised that nobody else has noticed the same thing, and that this procedure has reached the status of orthodoxy on this site.

I did a no chill pilsner that displayed a little.

Ahem!!

We must have been the only ones who didn't read the little 5pt caveat on the side of the Weyermann Pils malt bag NM.

It says (my translation may be rusty). Ein it is verboden iz das Helmet Heads uzen the no chiller method for ein Pilsner malz ein swchweinbratenpigballs. :lol:


Warren -

 

[Doc]

Have been drilling back through the topic, looking for experiences in LWH.
I see a number of you guys have done it, but what is the maximum amount of hops you have put in the cube ?
I'm thinking for my next hopburst, instead of chilling and running through the hop backs, adding a 100gr to the cube (15 litres). Have you guys been adding flowers, plugs or pellets ?

Doc

 

[Kai]

All three, doc. Never much more than 50g or so though.

 

[tangent]

do you chill before your hopback Doc?

 

[warrenlw63]

Doc.

Thus far I've done both (hopback & in the cube) I've found the hop character of using the hop back to be superior to adding to the cube for some reason.

Suprisingly you'd think you'd achieve fairly similar results from both YMMV. :unsure:

Warren -

 

[Doc]

Cheers Warren.
I wonder if I can get my hopbacks to work without a pump. One maybe fine, I'm sure my dual hopbacks won't.

Doc

 

[warrenlw63]

Doc

Finding this type of model to be a joy to use without a pump. Glass lid allows you to balance the inflow to the hops vs the outflow to the cubes. Throttle the flow to the cubes a tad and you get good saturation on the bed of hops. I stick around 40g of flowers in it per sitting.

Pot is 6.5 litres.

Warren -

 

[Jye]

Have been drilling back through the topic, looking for experiences in LWH.
I see a number of you guys have done it, but what is the maximum amount of hops you have put in the cube ?
I'm thinking for my next hopburst, instead of chilling and running through the hop backs, adding a 100gr to the cube (15 litres). Have you guys been adding flowers, plugs or pellets ?

Doc

I threw 90g of amarillo pellets into a cube once, it didnt really give the desired result. Using them in a hopback, dry hopping or as a 5min addition would have been much better.

 

[DJR]

Doc

Finding this type of model to be a joy to use without a pump. Glass lid allows you to balance the inflow to the hops vs the outflow to the cubes. Throttle the flow to the cubes a tad and you get good saturation on the bed of hops. I stick around 40g of flowers in it per sitting.

Pot is 6.5 litres.

Warren -

Warren

What sort of filter bed are you using in that? Stainless mesh? I wonder if one of those vegetable strainers would do the job.

Otherwise i might just drill a few 2mm holes in some ally sheet...

 

[warrenlw63]

DJR

Am lucky enough to have a good Vietnamese cheapie shop up the road. Pot was $8 and found a S/S vegie strainer for $2.50 with the "perfect" diameter for the pot. You can shove it in with a tiny bit of force and it sits tightly inside the pot.

Only downside is I fill 2 cubes and like to pull the basket out and change hops. Gets a little fiddly but nothing bad. Not counting the plumbing bits It only cost me around $12 to make. Unfortunately the plumbing bits were around $20.

Works like a total bloody charm. Glass lid allows you to view the liquid level. I sort of treat it a bit like fly sparging. Keep a good liquid level on the hops. :beerbang:

I reckon if you couldn't find a strainer. A scrubbie over the exit would work OK.

Edit: Pic should better explain.

Warren -

 

[Lukes]

Doc,
I asked about this too back in post 231.

I'm with Jye, as I tride it and did not notice any great effect other than leaf hops into the fermenter tap @ primary or a swollen hop sock stuck in the cube.

Luke

 

[Doc]

Has anyone else listened to The Brewing Network show from this week, where Colin Kaminski and the Brewcasters briefly discussed No Chill ?
I now have three NC batches fermenting. If I live until Easter I'll let you all know how they go

Doc

 

[barneyhanway]

Doc, yeah I listened to that. VERY interesting.
What I got from it, is that Colin was saying its a really really bad idea to seal up hot stuff, that there are some very very dangerous (lethal) organisms that survive in an anaerobic state that CAN'T survive if the container is unsealed. Things like botulism.
He states that creating a vacuum (sealing something hot and letting it cool) is something you NEVER do with food, because of the risk of these things.

Things that didn't sound right to me:
1) Is there anything left to cause you harm after a 60 minute boil?
2) I know for a fact that when making preserves, jams etc that you DO create a vacuum - and that any jars of jam that fail to seal up you MUST throw out

Personally I no chill in the fermenter with an airlock on - air gets drawn back in as it cools. And I pitch the next day. Never had an infection (from this) yet, touch wood.

Those of you who seal might want to do some more research.

 

[Doc]

Hey BH,

That is a good concise wrap of the comments from the show.

A couple of issues of BYO ago they did an article on canning/preserving wort for starters. Again as you state, under a sealed environment that would create a vacum. They had a disclaimer and info on botulism etc, but basically said, if your process is sound, you shouldn't have any problems.

I just keep reminding myself of the Fresh Wort Kits that having been being produced for years.

Beers,
Doc

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I just keep reminding myself of the Fresh Wort Kits that having been being produced for years.

... and as someone else alluded to, Fowlers Vacola and the like. Think of all the things that you can buy in jars and might be tempted to eat.

I have absolutely NO expertise in this matter, but it just doesn't seem right that we haven't heard more about all these people dying of stuffed olive poisoning.

Or am I missing something?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

... and as someone else alluded to, Fowlers Vacola and the like. Think of all the things that you can buy in jars and might be tempted to eat.

I have absolutely NO expertise in this matter, but it just doesn't seem right that we haven't heard more about all these people dying of stuffed olive poisoning.

Or am I missing something?

Yeah, you're missing something. Not that I think its a biggie but... in this case an error in judgement gets you dead.

Canned goods that are sealed under vacuum fall into 2 categories. High acid and lower acid.

High acid foods eg: jars of "canned" tomatoe sauce like maybe your mum used to make, are high acid and they are OK to seal up having been heated no hotter than boiling. The things like botulism that aren't sorted out by the heat, are fixed up by the acid levels.

Lower acid foods (and I dont know what the actual ph levels are) dont have the protection of the acidity and ther fore need to be heated to a level that will kill the spores of anaerobic nasties like botulism. In the case of Botulism A (I think thats the one) the heat required to kill it is 121C and you can only get your canned goods this hot if you use a pressure cooker to heat the jars.

Pretty damn small chance of it happening toyour wort I suppose, after all, as has been pointed out, there ARE the ESB kits. The trouble is, you dont just get sick... Get unlucky and eat a jar of boutlism effected mung beans, and fall over dead a couple of days later.

I think that I would really like to try No-Chill, but I reckon I'm gonna make sure that when the wort is cooling down it can get some air. Nice sterile filter in the lid. A little paranoid maybe, but better safe than sorry.

Thirsty

 

[Darren]

Doc, yeah I listened to that. VERY interesting.
What I got from it, is that Colin was saying its a really really bad idea to seal up hot stuff, that there are some very very dangerous (lethal) organisms that survive in an anaerobic state that CAN'T survive if the container is unsealed. Things like botulism.
He states that creating a vacuum (sealing something hot and letting it cool) is something you NEVER do with food, because of the risk of these things.

Things that didn't sound right to me:
1) Is there anything left to cause you harm after a 60 minute boil?
2) I know for a fact that when making preserves, jams etc that you DO create a vacuum - and that any jars of jam that fail to seal up you MUST throw out

Personally I no chill in the fermenter with an airlock on - air gets drawn back in as it cools. And I pitch the next day. Never had an infection (from this) yet, touch wood.

Those of you who seal might want to do some more research.

Now that is funny. Brew gurus talking about the dangers of botulism in anaerobically stored wort.

Why don't you hear about people dying from botulism these days. That is purely because they are just a "blip" on the radar.

Population of USA 301,173,523 people, 20-30 REPORTED outbreaks annually. Just a blip. You can bet they were very sick though.



Think about it. If one of you "no-chillers" does die from botulism, who is going to report it here :huh: ?

If chilling is pointless it does make me wonder why hundreds of years of brewing practice (chilling) can be surpassed by in the year 2006-7 with such an obvious simple process (no-chill). Maybe people are smarter today or just ignorant

cheers

Darren

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Google gave me this URL which has a goodly amount of information:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html

I am now confused between 80degC and 121degC.

 

[Jase]

Google gave me this URL which has a goodly amount of information:

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/chap2.html

I am now confused between 80degC and 121degC.

C botulinum is distributed widely throughout the environment and can be found in soil, freshwater and saltwater sediments, household dust, and on the surfaces of many foods. The toxins produced are cytoplasmic proteins (mass = 150 kDa) released as cells lyse. While the spores survive 2 hours at 100C (but die rapidly at 120C), the exotoxin is heat labile. It becomes inactivated after 1 minute at 85C or 5 minutes at 80C.


I'm even more confused now :blink:

Cheers,
Jase

 

[Darren]

Not too difficult. The spores survive the boil, get into your no chilled jerry. The spores then come out of their vegetative state (in your wort) and begin to multiply and produce toxins. You add your yeast ferment. Toxin is still present. Drink beer. Get sick.

cheers

Darren

(PS I have never read a reported case of beer related botulism. That could simply be that 99% of people have always chilled rapidly then fermented. I guess there is always a first 8) )