Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[Kai]

(I will shut up now)

I find that as doubtful as the chance of botulinum growing in a cube of wort.

 

[DJR]

I'd like to see something back that up. If so, debate over. Then begins the no-chill gruit debate.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...27/ai_n10532457

Barney also has patented the use of acid hops in toothpaste, mouthwash and tooth powders to kill Streptococcus mutans, the bacteria most responsible for dental cavities. All of the patents have been assigned to Miller Brewing.

In addition, beta acid hops can kill Staphylococcus, the bacteria responsible for one of the most common types of food poisoning as well as for acne. And it can kill Clostridium, the bacteria responsible for potentially lethal botulism poisoning.

For a century it was believed -- and later proved -- that acid hops were anti-microbial, capable of killing the lactic-acid bacteria that causes beer to spoil. Acid hops are contained in hops and released during the kettle boiling phase of beer-making. The acid hops remain in beer but also can be extracted from the hops after that stage, Barney said. The specific compound that fights bacteria is extracted in turn from the acid hops.

Barney decided to investigate acid hops' other anti-bacterial effects, if any, in 1989 simply out of curiosity. He quickly found it had a broad effect, almost universally effective against all Gram- positive bacteria. Gram-positive or -negative refers to a bacterium's ability to be stained during laboratory tests.

Even better, Barney found the concentration of acid hops needed to kill the germs was 100 to 1,000 times less than other, existing anti- bacterial agents. That means it is more potent and potentially cheaper to use. It also is a natural compound.

That doesn't necessarily make acid hops better, but it probably makes it more marketable to a phobic public that thinks natural is better and artificial is bad, Barney and other Miller officials acknowledged.

Barney's findings languished at Miller for years, because, frankly, the company didn't care.

"It didn't fit into our core business," which is to make a high- quality, great-tasting beer, said David S. Ryder, vice president of brewing, research and quality assurance at Miller.

When you think about it, beer -- because of the acid hops already in it, the germ-killing effects of alcohol, pasteurization and the use of clean, filtered water -- is about the safest food product in the world. You won't get food poisoning, acne or cavities from beer (OK, maybe stinky breath).

Ryder pointed out that even when pasteurized beer goes bad, it does not contain organisms that will cause disease in humans. It will taste and smell terrible, but it won't give you the green-apple quick- step that spoiled potato salad will.

The potential use is so hush-hush that an outside official who is helping Miller market the patents would say only that he expects the first use of the germ-killing acid hops to be introduced soon in a toothpaste and mouthwash in Europe.

 

[PostModern]

Nicely done, DJR. Now I feel safer having drunk all those no-chill beers.

Darren, were you not aware that 1IBU or more of alpha acids killed botulinum? What say you now?

 

[Adamt]

Win-win situation PoMo.

Either Darren comes to the dark side (no-chill), or he stays out of the no-chill debate! :beer: But where would be the fun in that?

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

"It didn't fit into our core business," which is to make a high- quality, great-tasting beer, said David S. Ryder, vice president of brewing, research and quality assurance at Miller.


They clearly did not (and still do not) have time for anything else. Let me know when they achieve their goal...

 

[Finite]

DISCLAIMER: Im not a doctor, I dont study microbiology, all of this is from information I have read from generally reputable sources on the internet and books. Dont ue me if im wrong.

From what I understand, and feel free to correct me.

Botulinum toxin is one of if not the most poisonous naturally occurring substances in the world. It is used in minute doses in medicine to cure muscle spasims and for cosmetic uses, botox anyone? To put it in perspective 100gm is enough to kill every human on earth.

Food borne botulinum which we are talking about here is the result of food that has been contaminated in an anaerobic (without oxygen) environment. This allows the spores to grow, the growing bacteria produce the toxin. Botulism-causing bacteria and their spores are everywhere, in soil and marine sediments worldwide, their spores are often found on the surfaces of fruits and vegetables, and in seafood. The bacteria and spores themselves are harmless; the dangerous substance is the toxin produced by the bacteria when they grow.

Canned food is the obvious noteable contender here, ususal the signs of a puffed up, rusted or mistreated can are an imediate sign to NOT open the can or consume the contents, I would sudgest if your no chill cube is bloated or smells off that you dont even bother tasting it. Foods which a low acid content, such as carrot juice, corn, celery etc are more suceptable to producing the toxin. As such many commercial canned goods are required to undergo a "botulinum cook" which acording to The Institute of Food Science and Technology in USA is "The heat treatment given to a low acid canned food (having a pH higher than 4.2) sufficient to inactivate 1012 spores of Clostridium botulinum. This heat treatment is called the Fo value and it is equivalent to a process of 3 mins at 121C, 10 mins at 115C or 32 mins at 110C." Beer can vairy but usualy falls between 5.3 - 5.0 after the boil, prior to fermentation which means it IS suceptable if not treated. The botulinum cook is the amount of heat processing required to reduce the chance of survival of a botulinum spore to 1 in 1000000000000. High-acid foods contain enough acid (ph of 4.6 or less) so that the Clostridium botulinum spores cant grow and produce their deadly toxin. The spores must have an oxygen-depleted, low-acid environment in which to grow, and prefer temperatures between 4.5C and 60C.

Acording to the US Food and Drug Administration "One basic recommendation is to cook food to be canned in pressure cookers because they can maintain temperatures high enough (above 212 F, or 100 C) for 10 minutes to kill the spores". Another Microbioligy book I read says that boiling the food for 10 minutes or longer is sufficiant to kill the spores. The most common source of the the toxin is food which has been heated and left to sit in a sealed container. As such the FDA recomends that foods cooked at home and not treated for botulinum should not be left at temperatures between 40 F and 140 F (4.5 C to 60 C) for more than four hours. The toxin that may have formed can readily be destroyed by boiling the food for 10 minutes.

How does this all affect our beer?

Well from what Ive read, understand and have discussed with another person who studies pharmacy and microbioligy.

The length of a 60min or more boil then the transfer into a sanised container SHOULD be more than enough to kill bacteria that produce the toxin. I pitch my wort the day after fermentation and would sudgest you dont let it sit for to long in the no chill cube to reduce the risk. Once the wort is aerated the toxin will not be produced additionaly the PH of a fermented wort would generaly be to low for the bacteria to survive.

Botulism does exsist it is one of the most poisiones substances on earth and it will create a serious problem if your not weary of it. That being said the cases of food born botulinum in the US is about 30 a year and is becoming very very rare. If you are uncomftable with the fact that it could form in your no chill beer then dont no chill, its not worth your life. However If you maintain a strong boil for 60 mins it should not produce a problem. In the end its up to you, like alot of things in life, treat it with the respect take the steps to prevent it and it should'nt be an issue. If your afraid it will be then don't bother introducing the risk and use a chiller.

With the length of the boil I doubt it will be an issue

 

[DJR]

Blake, good post, but i get the feeling you were writing that just as i found out the info about hop acids inhibiting and killing c. botulinum. But your point about a 60min boil is a good one, however ideally we'd all go get big pressure cookers (autoclaves) and pressure can our wort cubes

 

[Zizzle]

As such the FDA recomends that foods cooked at home and not treated for botulinum should not be left at temperatures between 40 F and 140 F (4.5 C to 60 C) for more than four hours.

Heh, I'm sure most people keep their left-overs in their fridge for more than a few hours. And how many fridges sustain 4 degrees C or lower?

Also I seem to remember someone saying that there has only ever been one food bourne botulism death in this country and that was a baby eating bad honey. I thought it was in this thread, but can't find it now.

In the US, 30 cases means you have a 1 in 10 million chance it happening. Are all 30 cases typically fatal?

Even so it hardly rates a mention on this chart:

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Great find DJR! B)

I can now sleep at night - I might even consider putting a bag of hops under my pillow at nights

Hops... is there anything they can't do?

Cheers

 

[lou]

As some one who does pressure cook my starters (but no chills otherwise) I can tell you that you would not want to autoclave the whole wort - raising the temp to 121C totally changes the wort - more protein coagulates and drops out and the wort noticably darkens - also pressure cooking seems to produce alot of DMS - the wort smells pretty weired after it comes out of the bigboy

the bigboy

I always suspected there must be a very good reasson why botulism does not tend to grow in beer wort and the
antimicrobial activity of hop acids seems fairly conclusive to me.

Consider the number of other bugs which do grow in wort (besides the ones we want in there) - surely botulism would have a go as well - yeast or no yeast if it was able to

beer as we know is a very safe product (minus the alcohol of course :chug: )

yea blessed hops - protector of beer

may thy vines fruit in bounty and much bitterness



lou B)

 

[Duff]

It would be great (and maybe end the debate once and for all) if we could get someone from ESB to comment on their process and why it works.

cheers

Browndog

Gerard_M who makes the wort kits now where ESB had theirs done has addressed this point already within this thread. He was telling me Sunday that some weeks they are brewing 4 days trying to keep up with demand. Must be OK I guess.

Cheers.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

... ideally we'd all go get big pressure cookers (autoclaves) and pressure can our wort cubes

... or just get *really big* microwave ovens... h34r:

 

[geoffi]

So hop acid kills all sorts of nasties, even at low concentrations.

And yet yeast seems to thrive in its presence, even in these super-duper IBU-in-the-stratosphere IPAs some folks brew. Saccharomyces cerevisiae is one tough customer.

Perhaps Benjamin Franklin was right: "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy".

 

[Kai]

Just to add (repeat), since there's a lot of psuedo-science flying around in this thread; who can even say there is no oxygen in your cubed wort? I doubt any of us can rack anything and leave it oxygen free.

 

[Batz]

Hops... is there anything they can't do?

Cheers

Kill your dog

Batz

 

[Finite]

Blake, good post, but i get the feeling you were writing that just as i found out the info about hop acids inhibiting and killing c. botulinum. But your point about a 60min boil is a good one, however ideally we'd all go get big pressure cookers (autoclaves) and pressure can our wort cubes

yeah didnt see your post but oh well some more info cant hurt.

 

[user 384]

Blake not a bad summary

The length of a 60min or more boil then the transfer into a sanised container SHOULD be more than enough to kill bacteria that produce the toxin.

With the length of the boil I doubt it will be an issue

However this is not the part people are disputing. The boil will kill the botulism and destroy any existing toxins, but any spores will survive even a 60 min boil at 100C. The spores then can potentialy germinate, grow, divide and produce toxins which would then be in your beer. Your point to not let your no chill beer sit for very long is a good suggestion as it would limit the chance for germination etc to occur.

I think Kai raises one of the most valid points.

Just to add (repeat), since there's a lot of psuedo-science flying around in this thread; who can even say there is no oxygen in your cubed wort? I doubt any of us can rack anything and leave it oxygen free.

Botulism is extremely susceptible to the presence of oxygen and it's unlikely that any of us have no oxygen in our cubes.

In relation to question on the fatality of botulism, according to the World Health Organisation, if properly treated it has a 5%-10% fatality rate. So we are talking about a condition with an extremely low incidence rate and fatality rate. Simple answer is if you don't like those odds, then don't use this method.

Finally if we want more information on the effect of hop acids on botulism someone could shoot of to Michael Barney who discovered the phenomena at [email protected]

Cheers
MAH

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I propose a new poll:

Have you ever died from drinking beer? If so, was it:

o Botulism
o Unrecoverable Liver Damage
o Light Pole Poisoning
o Really Annoyed Neighbour/Spouse/Bouncer

That ought to settle the whole thing once and for all... :blink:

 

[KillerRx4]

Just to add (repeat), since there's a lot of psuedo-science flying around in this thread; who can even say there is no oxygen in your cubed wort? I doubt any of us can rack anything and leave it oxygen free.

Looks like Darren didnt want to comment on that a couple of pages ago. Must have some merit.

 

[andrewg]

Is wort after the boil 100% oxygen free?
Do you get 0% airation when transferring to the cube?
Do you remove 100% headspace when capping it off?

Would any of these inhibit the growth of these botulism nasties?

Interesting debate!
Like KillerRx4, I wonder how anerobic no-chill wort is. As I remember it oxygen absorption increases with temperature, so if the boiling wort is settled for 15-20min prior to transfer to the cube, the settling time and transfer should allow some uptake of oxygen. So the wort won't be 100% oxygen free - that coupled with the long boil time (90min is standard in my case) and hop acids suggests that the risk is very very low.
cheers
HStB