Users Of The "no Chiller Method"

[Gerard_M]

Maybe Gerard could give us some stats from St Peters Brewery as to how many of their thousands of no chilled cubes have turned into hydrostatic bombs whilst awaiting sale on the HBS floor?



Festa

(Going to try my 101st attempt a growing microbes. Fortunately, all 100 so far have yielded good ones. I'm sure there is a bad on out there....)

In the 3+1/2 years that I have been selling them, I have never had an ESB Fresh Wort Kit from the St.Peter's Brewery puff up into a "hydrostatic bomb". But then we don't have them sitting around for very long as they sell so quickly.
Thanks for asking

Cheers
Gerard

 

[Weizguy]

<abbrev>
So in the interest of getting a result that would let the numbers speak for themselves is there anyway of doing a Poll or some type of summary of what everyone’s results have been.
</abbrev>

I propose the following poll:

How do U rate no-chill Brewing? :

• Never intend to use it. Unbeliever...If I don't get botulism, I'll die from humiliation, and be unable to snipe evermore.
• Too dead to vote. Death by beer cube, or "in hospital with some type of disease as a result of using the "No Chillier Method" ", to quote SJW.
• Nah, I dunnit once and had a bad result.
• NO thanks, I tried it a few times, with poor results and it doesn't work for me.
• OK, I've used it and I'll do no-chill again, but only when I'm short on time. It's a good back-up plan - like having some dry yeast on hand.
• Great, I'll do mostly No-chill, and only chill wort when I have to. Converted!
• Jesus spoke to me from the Belgian lace down the inside of someone's beer glass. I am one of the chosen. I will advocate the No-chill method publicly and practice it fervently, to the exclusion of all other methods. Testify!

or not!

Seth pollmaker

edit: Removed extraneous text from the quote at the top

 

[Weizguy]

OK, so we're not having a poll?

I thought it was a good idea, to sort out the numbers of advocates, experienced users and naysayers.

Seth

 

[devo]

I'm still undecided about the no chill method because I've only done it once and yet tasted the result due to it still fermenting.

I know it's a common and established practice these days to have a the "cold break" as part of the process but how was it done before brewers had the ability to do this?

 

[bugwan]

I'm a no-chiller. My CFC is now gathering dust, with the once-loved immersion coil...

Does that mean they're for sale Hutch

 

[Ross]

OK, so we're not having a poll?

I thought it was a good idea, to sort out the numbers of advocates, experienced users and naysayers.

Seth

Your idea Seth - Why don't you start one?

Cheers Ross

 

[Hutch]

Does that mean they're for sale Hutch

Sorry, no such luck Bugwan.
I have plenty of superfluous HB equipment that I just can't part with (particularly with the way copper prices are going!)

 

[PistolPatch]

Seth,

I think it would be extremely helpful and informative if you started a poll. When all this no-chill stuff started I was having to concentrate on other things in my brewing. Now, these threads have become way too big or hijacked too much to reasonably expect new guys to read them from start to finish. (Getting a heap of laughs just reading the last few pages of this one though )

I think the poll idea would be a great help for newer guys such as myself and may stay a little more under control especially if you ask that only people who have tried the method contribute to the thread.

Cheers mate,
Pat

 

[Weizguy]

Well, Pat...seeing as you and Ross asked so nicely, I'll do it soon.

Were you happy with the standard of questions I prepared, or should I revise?

Beerz
Seth

 

[hupnupnee]

All good Weizguy - go the poll.

As for the Darren slappers, leave him alone Darren has added a really interesting and useful dimension to this discussion. Each time he has chirped in it has illisited some really interesting discusion, and better yet he has inspired people to back up their assertions with more than just the anacdotal evidence that is the mainstay of this discussion.

I agree Darren, there is no amount of anacdotal evidence that will substitute for the sort or rigor required for science. However personal experience of any event regardless of how unlikely or improbable will always be regarded more "valid" than any esoteric scientifically valid experiement. But then again, if a whole lot of personal expereince is validating the same finding - maybe they're on to something.


Could the no chillers get a few sterile containers - aseptically transfer some wort into them and send it off to you for a full cell count and ID and then maybe a bit of a culture up to check for viablility?


Perhaps Darren can answer me this?

The sugar concentration of a wort is quiet high thus reducing available water for spores to regenerate.
Many food spoilage organsisms have a fairly low tolerance for high sugar concentrations.
Many food spoilage organisms don't fair to well at temperatures above about 75* for too long.
Those that form spores can tolerate higher temps for longer.
Many food spoilage organisms favour aerobic conditions for multiplication.
Santisation reduce the number of viable cells.


Is the above true, if so, do you think that the no-chill methods produces a rather hostile environment for food spoilage organisms and there for would be unlikely (but not imposible) to develop detrimental infection?

A few thoughts and questions

Tim

 

[moegreen]

The sugar concentration of a wort is quiet high thus reducing available water for spores to regenerate.

How do you figure this? Do you have a reference? If crystallization of honey is a bacteria concern, I would suspect wort is far from a sugar preservative.

Bacteria can double typically every 10-30 minutes in ideal environments. Obviously exponential growth can be substantia, much baster than brewer's yeast.

Sterilization of course is 100% kill rate, which is a bit of a bold assertion outside of an autoclave. 99.9% is not sterilization, it's sanitation.

Now, take this into consideration: All homebrew has contamination. Give it enough time, beer will show evidence of said contamination. Despite this, beer tastes just fine up to that point, and actually tastes fine to most beyond that point. Just because you can't taste it doesn't mean the contamination isn't there. It just hasn't progressed to the flavor threshold. This is true of all perishable products.

So, speaking practically, worrying about no-chill contamination is a bit of a moot point. For some, no-chill may be better than chilling because their cleaning and sanitation is laxed, while maybe for the anal, it may be worse. In the end, provided some basic levels of sanitation, it's probably a matter of shelf life. Reading these threads though, I find it a bit dubious the sense if invincibility to contamination no-chill proponents seem to have.

 

[Kai]

The only class I judged was dark ale. Would be interested to hear how many no chills were in there and how they went!

cheers


Darren

Just got my judging notes back, I had two in the dark ales, an english brown and a robust porter. Only complaint for the porter was lack of roasty qualities, the english brown was too hoppy / not malty enough and one judge found it a little rubbery / phenolic. Of the four beers I had in there were no DMS complaints on any of the judging notes.

 

[user 384]

All homebrew has contamination. Give it enough time, beer will show evidence of said contamination. Despite this, beer tastes just fine up to that point, and actually tastes fine to most beyond that point. Just because you can't taste it doesn't mean the contamination isn't there. It just hasn't progressed to the flavor threshold. This is true of all perishable products..................

In the end, provided some basic levels of sanitation, it's probably a matter of shelf life.

Good point. Well made.

I find it a bit dubious the sense if invincibility to contamination no-chill proponents seem to have.

I don't think people are saying they are invincible to contamination and in fact there has been a lot of aknowledgement of the risks, however people are saying that the no-chill method seems to pose no increased risk over other traditional methods.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Hopsta]

To all "no chillers" today is the day i attempt my 1st no chill brew (only because my fermenter fridge is full), a brown porter its not hop driven and its a dark beer which is hard to stuff up anyway.
I have quickly skimmed through ~50 odd pages on this method.

I have all the ingredients ready to go for a 20litre batch, at the end of boil i will whirlpool let sit for ~10 mins then gravity feed into my 25litre cube and sqeeze the cube till i have purged all the headspace, or can i just give it a burst of C02 ? whats better? I dont want my cube to be out of shape permanently.

Cheers,
Hopsta

 

[crozdog]

To all "no chillers" today is the day i attempt my 1st no chill brew (only because my fermenter fridge is full), a brown porter its not hop driven and its a dark beer which is hard to stuff up anyway.
I have quickly skimmed through ~50 odd pages on this method.

I have all the ingredients ready to go for a 20litre batch, at the end of boil i will whirlpool let sit for ~10 mins then gravity feed into my 25litre cube and sqeeze the cube till i have purged all the headspace, or can i just give it a burst of C02 ? whats better? I dont want my cube to be out of shape permanently.

Cheers,
Hopsta

For my 1st no chill, I co2'd the cube before & after racking. i squeezed as much air out as possible as well.
The 2nd no chill had co2 after racking + a good side squeeze to expell arir.
With subsequent ones I have omitted the co2 altogether & just expelled as much asir as I could.

The sides of the cubes do pop back to normal when you wash the cube with hot water after emptying it into the fermenter. A slight squeeze is sometimes needed to get it to pop.

Good luck with the brew.
beers
Crozdog

 

[Hopsta]

Thanks crozdog!

 

[Weizguy]

Thanks crozdog!

Hopsta,

I suggest that you squeeze out as much air as you can and then apply the lid, and then turn the whole thing upside down to heat-sanitise the headspace at the top of the cube.
That's a point I missed, and the result was a contaminated brew.

Beerz
Seth

 

[Hopsta]

Thanks crozdog!

Hopsta,

I suggest that you squeeze out as much air as you can and then apply the lid, and then turn the whole thing upside down to heat-sanitise the headspace at the top of the cube.
That's a point I missed, and the result was a contaminated brew.

Beerz
Seth

Wish i had of read this a little earlier but it doesnt matter i had the cube soaking in bleach and shook an iodine mix through it before filling, should be right im sure the steam would cook any nasties, fingers crossed. It was impossible to get all the air out my main concern with this method is the possibility of getting badly burnt, squeezing a limp plastic cube to purge the air could result in it bursting, cracking or collapsing and spilling on you. Care needs to be taken. Anyway im looking forward to tasting the results.

Cheers,
Hopsta

P.s heres a pic of the finished product.

 

[Darren]

Could the no chillers get a few sterile containers - aseptically transfer some wort into them and send it off to you for a full cell count and ID and then maybe a bit of a culture up to check for viablility?


Perhaps Darren can answer me this?

The sugar concentration of a wort is quiet high thus reducing available water for spores to regenerate.
Many food spoilage organsisms have a fairly low tolerance for high sugar concentrations.
Many food spoilage organisms don't fair to well at temperatures above about 75* for too long.
Those that form spores can tolerate higher temps for longer.
Many food spoilage organisms favour aerobic conditions for multiplication.
Santisation reduce the number of viable cells.


Is the above true, if so, do you think that the no-chill methods produces a rather hostile environment for food spoilage organisms and there for would be unlikely (but not imposible) to develop detrimental infection?

A few thoughts and questions

Tim

Tim,

I can see the boss comong and saying " What are you doing"? Oh just growing up some homebrew cultures. In my old job I could have gotten away with it but not the new one, plus I am too busy.

I agree hot wort is not the ideal growth medium for bugs. As I have alsways said, its the 80/20 rule. That is, 20% of the process causes 80% of the problem. Sanitation is a big part of that 20%.

Having said that if it works for you, great if it doesn't you have wasted a couple of days.

cheers

Darren

 

[AndrewQLD]

This is a bit OT, I'm not a scientist but I am an IT Professional and do you know how many viruses are out there right now as you all tap on your keyboards about 'to chill' or 'not to chill'.

There are risks in all facets of life and I suggest stick with what works for you.

BTW I deserve a bloody medal for reading all 28 pages.


Ian...

Welcome aboard Ian, and if the last 28 pages didn't put you off then I guess you're here to stay :lol: . And you're right you do deserve a medal to.

Cheers
Andrew