Unmalted Wheat And Barley - I Dont Get It.

[bear09]

Hi All.

I just have a quick couple of questions about using grains that are unmalted.

How are they useful? If they are unmalted then there would be no starch available to convert? If you can use unmalted grains then why bother malting?

How do they enhance flavour? What do they add to the profile of a beer?

A post that I put up about 5 mins ago in regards to Hoegaarden yielded this link (thanks for that BTW): http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php...ian_Style_Wheat

After reading it I noticed it said to use unmalted wheat.

Thank you.

 

[raven19]

As I understand unmalted grain does not contain active enzymes to breakdown the starch into sugars. Hence you always need some malted grains so the enzyme (which has been awoken ready to break down starch into fermentable sugars - as part of the grain germination process) within can breakdown sugars in the malted (and nearby unmalted) grains.

If you went all unmalted grain = no available enzymes = no fermentable sugars.

Also if you have a large % of unmalted grain - I would anticipate a longer mash time required to allow the smaller amount of enzymes to do the work.

Edit: From Wikipedia...
Malting grains develops the enzymes that are required to modify the grain's starches into sugars, including monosaccharides (glucose, fructose, etc.) and disaccharides (sucrose, etc.). It also develops other enzymes, such as proteases which break down the proteins in the grain into forms which can be utilized by yeast.

 

[RetsamHsam]

G'day Mate,

It is my understanding that unmalted grains do not contain any of the enzymes necessary to convert starch into sugars. This is why the inclusion of malted grains are necessary in the mash.

Damien

Edit: What he said..

 

[Supra-Jim]

LOL, it appears I'm stalking your posts!!!

From memory it is generally only wheat that is use included in brewing in an unmalted state. Not normally other grains.

The reasons for this escape me, though i picked this statement up from elsewhere : The rolling/flaking process is done with heat, and therefore the grain is pre-gelatinized and you can just toss it into your mash with your other malts.

Apparently the pre-gelatinization of the grain does allow access to the starches.

I do stand (and wait) to be corrected on this.

Damn some people can type faster and smarter than me!!!!

:icon_cheers: SJ

 

[bear09]

LOL, it appears I'm stalking your posts!!!

From memory it is generally only wheat that is use included in brewing in an unmalted state. Not normally other grains.

The reasons for this escape me, though i picked this statement up from elsewhere : The rolling/flaking process is done with heat, and therefore the grain is pre-gelatinized and you can just toss it into your mash with your other malts.

Apparently the pre-gelatinization of the grain does allow access to the starches.

I do stand (and wait) to be corrected on this.

Damn some people can type faster and smarter than me!!!!

:icon_cheers: SJ

Stalk away!!! Thank you!!

 

[warra48]

There seems to be still parts of the original post which appears not to have been answered as yet, and that is:

What is the flavour difference between malted and ummalted wheat?
What difference is there in what each adds to the profile of your beer?

I'm intrigued, as I've never used unmalted wheat, although I see it from time to time in recipes.

 

[Quintrex]

There seems to be still parts of the original post which appears not to have been answered as yet, and that is:

What is the flavour difference between malted and ummalted wheat?
What difference is there in what each adds to the profile of your beer?

I'm intrigued, as I've never used unmalted wheat, although I see it from time to time in recipes.

I thought unmalted wheat had a slightly tart finish as compared to malted wheat. People also say that unmalted wheat gives better head retention, im guessing to more intact starches and proteins as compared to the malted counterparts.

'Q

 

[PostModern]

LOL, it appears I'm stalking your posts!!!

From memory it is generally only wheat that is use included in brewing in an unmalted state. Not normally other grains.

Unmalted barley is commonly used in Stout and probably other English beers as well. Historically, to reduce the tax burden on beer, which used to be taxed on the malt content. Same sorta thing with Guiness and 10% roasted barley.

There seems to be still parts of the original post which appears not to have been answered as yet, and that is:

What is the flavour difference between malted and ummalted wheat?
What difference is there in what each adds to the profile of your beer?

I'm intrigued, as I've never used unmalted wheat, although I see it from time to time in recipes.

Unmalted wheat leaves a little starch haze in the finished beer as well. Mostly used in Wit (as opposed to Weized/Weis). Again, probably a historical thing from when Germany dominated trade in malt in Western Europe, forcing the Belgians to come up with other ways to get their fermentables.

 

[hazard]

From memory it is generally only wheat that is use included in brewing in an unmalted state.

Flaked barley (unmalted) and roasted barley (also unmalted) are quite often found in stout (and sometimes red ale, in much smaller quantities). Sometimes roasted (black) malt is used in lieu of rasted barley to get that black colour and roasted taste.
A guineess style recipe would be:
Pale ale malt - 70%
flaked barley 20%
roast barley 10%

So I assume that all enzyme to convert starches in unmalted barley will come from the ale malt.

 

[Fourstar]

I know one thing as an example, the flavour difference between Black MALT and Roast Barley.

Personally, I find Black Patent/Roast malt is very Acrid comparative to roast barley being quite smooth and rounded. I dont know if thats because of the grain being malted or the roast EBC % but I would say its because there are sugars being burnt compared to a base grain being roasted, thus you dont end up with a burnt caramelised taste with base unmodified grain. When it comes to raw unmalted grains like flaked barley and oats etc, they are generally used to increase the dextrins in the wort, consequently you get a fuller mouth feel and a higher FG due to an increase in unconverted starches.

On a side note, if you have a % above 30% of your grist being unmalted grains, it can be advisable to perform a protein rest to ensure you have some gelatinisation of the grains to aid in partial conversion of the starches/enzymes. Basically so you get some converted starches in the process and make sure your mash doesnt set like concrete.

I believe Palmer covers this is howtobrew, under protein rest.

 

[hosko11]

So in my reading of this - and sorry to highjack -, as a lowly Kits and Bits brewer, doing a mini mash of just Torrified wheat (and rolled oats) for a Wit is not going to contribute any fermentables to the beer compared to if I included some form of malt in the mash.

Therefore, am I actually achieving much by doing the mini mash which is then combined with dry wheat extract for the wort?
Cheers.

 

[~MikE]

hmm was gonna start my own thread but might hijack this one. i've landed nearly 40kg of raw wheat. i found a how-to and started malting a kg (as i don't think i'll get through it otherwise) - anyone have any experience malting grain for brewing?

 

[Fourstar]

hmm was gonna start my own thread but might hijack this one. i've landed nearly 40kg of raw wheat. i found a how-to and started malting a kg (as i don't think i'll get through it otherwise) - anyone have any experience malting grain for brewing?

I was going to say, soak the grain, spread it out and turn it every couple of days until it begins to sprout. Then i saw this:

http://www.nogy.net/malthouse/page3.html

 

[raven19]

So in my reading of this - and sorry to highjack -, as a lowly Kits and Bits brewer, doing a mini mash of just Torrified wheat (and rolled oats) for a Wit is not going to contribute any fermentables to the beer compared to if I included some form of malt in the mash.

Therefore, am I actually achieving much by doing the mini mash which is then combined with dry wheat extract for the wort?
Cheers.

I beleive you are correct, need to add some malted grains so the enzymes can break down the starch in fermentables.

hmm was gonna start my own thread but might hijack this one. i've landed nearly 40kg of raw wheat. i found a how-to and started malting a kg (as i don't think i'll get through it otherwise) - anyone have any experience malting grain for brewing?

No experience as such, but you will need a moist (possibly dark too) environment to start germination, and once sprouting has started (once the grains have a certain length of sprout), you need to get them into the oven. I think there may have been some old threads on this from memory though...

Edit: Too slow - what Fourstar said!

 

[Fourstar]

Its got me thinking..

Fourstars Floor malted *insert grain here*... Niiice could go well as a harvest beer with the Hops im growing if i eventually get a yield.

 

[~MikE]

Thanks for that fourstar, i have a slightly simpler method, soak overnight, strain, rinse+turn daily. my only concern is when to get it into the oven. it says to kill germination when the stem is ~3/4 the length of the seed, but i've yet to cross paths with commercial malt with roots and stem sticking out of it... i'm going to follow it and probably make half of it a crystal malt and half pale wheat, do a minimash and see what the sugar content looks like...

EDIT: after some reading, it seems in a commercial setup, they use a machine to remove the rootlets etc after kilning.

 

[pint of lager]

Mike, as part of the malting process, the roots are removed. Once the grain is kilned, the rootlets are small and dried. The grain is tumbled and these rootlets fall off.

In barley, the acrospire (thats the very small first shoot) grows under the husk and then emerges from the husk. As your grain is germinating, examine a few grains and look out for the acrospire. The husk becomes translucent as part of the germination soaking and the acrospire is obvious when you look for it. You want to stop the germination before the acrospire breaks free of the husk. In practise, start stopping the germination when the acrospire is about 1/2 to 2/3 the length of the grain.

Wheat doesn't have a husk and the acrospire will not be hidden under the husk as happens with barley. This lack of husk is one reason wheat makes mashes more complicated.

More uses of your wheat. Start baking bread and use a proportion of freshly ground wheat. Sow some in a fallow garden bed and turn it in as green manure. Buy a few chooks and feed wheat as part of their rations. They will also need pellets.

 

[Fourstar]

EDIT: after some reading, it seems in a commercial setup, they use a machine to remove the rootlets etc after kilning.

I'd say if you kilned at a low temp for an overly extended period or wanted to try and make some 'munich/vienna wheat' at a higher temp, the extended/increased temp kilning process would be enough to cause the rootlets to just fall off. I couldn't forsee any issues by having the rootlets in the mash as well, they would proably aid in lautering like other stray matter and rice gulls.

 

[pint of lager]

The rootlets are a hassle when running the grain through the mill, they form a mesh and can stop the grain falling into the mill.

 

[~MikE]

thanks for the replies guys, i reckon if the rootlets don't fall/rub off the pale malt - i'll give it the 20ish mins roasting to make it into a vienna/munich type wheat malt thingy. looks like there's plenty of other things i can do with it anyway if i can only take so much wit bier

will keep posted.