Trois Monts

[jagerbrau]

I tried the Trois Monts with the others on friday night, loved the little taste i had. Have not had any in along time and was wondering if any one knew of a clone, or info that could lean towards cloning it.

Think most who tried it would like the idea as well.

Cheers Dave

 

[neonmeate]

it's a beautiful beer, i have it every now and again and always enjoy it.

there was a clone for it in that protz and wheeler book i think but i don't have it to hand.
also there might have been some info in "farmhouse ales"?

from memory i think 100% pilsener malt with tettnanger, brewers gold and strisselspalt hops? you can't get strisselspalt round here though - i have no idea whether spalt or something would get you close. there may be some white sugar added but then again maybe it's 100% malt - i'll check.

the yeast flavour is pretty unique in this beer - a bit tart - you might want to try culturing up the yeast. the yeast is culturable though i've never tried myself. apparently victoire french bakery in balmain uses the yeast from it for their sourdough bread (so it must have a bit of lactobacillus in it??).

ill post more when i get home to my books if nobody else posts first.

edit: i remember now there is also a recipe in "beer captured" - not that that is a reputable source....

 

[neonmeate]

found the protz info: OG of 1080. pilsener malt and sugar only. brewer's gold and tettnang to 27 IBU. (i'd guess a fair bit in late additions too).

 

[warrenlw63]

Jagerbrau & NM,

According to Farmhouse Ales, Brasserie St. Sylvestre are renowned for chaptalizing (adding sugar) to their beers.

I agree Trois Monts is a nice, big winey type of beer. I really love it. I could be totally wrong but the long, dry finish would have to have some sugar in it or some really big attenuation. From what I can gather the brewery use two different yeast strains for various products.

Get a sneaking suspicion by it's flavour profile it would be a fairly difficult beer to clone though. h34r:

Warren -

 

[neonmeate]

that's right i remember reading about the two yeasts now that you mention it.
yeah could be one of those beers that you just have to buy if you want to drink it... a simple solution really.

from 1080 to get 8.5% what's that work out at ... FG of 1016... so it wouldn't be TOO much sugar.
but i guess the ABVs on the bottle are more for excise and import purposes than homebrewers...

i tried substituting northdown for brewers gold in my Ranke XX Bitter clone but didn't really get it.. that is also a hard hop flavour to replicate (especially the Belgian Brewer's Gold, which is quite raunchy).

 

[warrenlw63]

Yep,

Upon reading Farmhouse Ales you'd almost be mistaken for thinking that the flavours of a BDG are going to be elusive unless you can get your hands on some Alsatian Brewers Gold and Some Strisselspalt. Particularly the Brewers Gold to get the feintly aniseedy notes that seem apparent in BDGs like Jenlain. <_<

Scary part is when I was in Paris in 2003 a bottle of Jenlain was 1.80 Euro and almost as commonly available as VB. IIRC 3 Monts was about 2 Euros a bottle in virtually any supermarket and not that much harder to get.

My only complaint and this almost runs counter to the stale British beer in Australia conspiracy theory. The French versions were actually released for sale "too green" or young, in their own country, still enjoyable though nonetheless.

The imports to Oz actually benefit from the amount of time they've spent ageing or benefit from neglect and seem to develop more of that cellar "mustiness" that eludes them in France.

In their own country generally-speaking they seem to be very clean and malty. Almost like a Bock.

Warren -

 

[neonmeate]

interesting - the cork really adds to the trois monts taste. i don't see it as a massive fault.
has anyone tried that graham sanders suggestion of chucking cork in secondary?

found a michael jackson article from '92 that gives an OG of 1076. which does seem more likely considering how dry the beer is. he also says that they use 3 different yeasts for three different beers (i.e. only one yeast per beer). so culturing may be a good route after all.

http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000128.html

i think i'm going to try making one! ill culture the bugger up and see what happens. worst that can eventuate is a nice loaf of sourdough.
starting at 1076 5-6% sugar should get me there.
im thinking hallertau northern brewer is probably a decent substitute for Brewers Gold, northdown didnt have the same sharpness.

 

[Weizguy]

Did a little research at Brewer.org. The article was reviewed by Garetz, so that may lend some authenticity.

The hops substitution suggested for Brewer's Gold is Bullion. However, this may be due to bittering strength mostly.

For Strisselspalt, the suggested substitutes are Hersbrucker or German Spalt.

In the Wheeler & Protz book, the suggested amount of cane sugar is about 300g for the "3 Monts" with a boiling addition of Brewer's Gold and Tettnang.

Hope this helps.

Seth

 

[warrenlw63]

interesting - the cork really adds to the trois monts taste. i don't see it as a massive fault.
has anyone tried that graham sanders suggestion of chucking cork in secondary?

[post="107161"][/post]​

As stipulated NM, I have to agree, extended ageing aids the complexity, corkiness and Chardonnay-like character of Trois Monts. :beerbang: When I tried it in Paris it was maltier and far cleaner. More like a fruity Hellesbock.

Anything Graham Sanders says I dare say Graham Sanders would agree with. :lol: To gain anything from the cork I'd imagine you'd have to keep the beer in the secondary for at least 3 months and have some form of 02 exchange. I actually thought of chucking some halved corks in the keg for my Saison but for no real reason abandoned the idea. h34r:

In short you'll have to find some way of corking the bottles. I've had thoughts of a lever corker, corking champagne bottles then capping with a triage cap to stop the cork purging itself out and maybe putting a small hole in the top of the cap to allow the 02 to permeate over time. :beerbang:

Warren -

 

[Kai]

So if it takes transport halfway round the world to give it that musty corky cellar character, can it really be considered essential to the style?

 

[jagerbrau]

cheers for all the tips, i think its going to take me a week to research. Friday nite down the wheatie it seemed to be a beer we all loved. My trouble is i see some complexitys and i straight away go wouldnt mind making that.

any more ideas post them or PM me


Thanks

 

[berto]

Dont PM
Post here so its a knowledge bank for all

 

[jagerbrau]

thats good thinking, it is a great libary. the best resource yet

 

[warrenlw63]

So if it takes transport halfway round the world to give it that musty corky cellar character, can it really be considered essential to the style?

[post="107236"][/post]​

Probably not essential, however desired and to a degree probably expected by most consumers of the style I guess. I for one prefer it in mild degrees.

Case in point try a bottle Chimay Grand Reserve in a 375ml capped bottle and a 750ml corked bottle. I'm inclined to think the corked bottle has a softer, easier to drink edge which is relevant enough to say it creates a slightly different beer YMMV.

All that said most BDGs released that I've tried as fresher examples seem to lack these traits, possibly because of supply and demand and a need to get the product on the shelves. Leads me to believe the "cellar character" or what a lot of people would almost refer to in wine terms as terroir is developed over time or almost even an occurance of neglect to a degree.

Here's a bit of relevant info to corked bottles borrowed from Farmhouse Ales;

Corked notes, particularly those described as "musty" or "earthy" are contributed to beer (and wine) by a compound called TCA (2,4,6-trichloroanisole) that is presnt in all natural cork materials. TCA is caused by moulds native to the bark of the cork oak tree (Quercus suber) and is present in variable amounts in natural cork material. It is interesting to note that while this character may be considered charming and rustic (by many but not all tasters) in French beer, too much cork character is considered a colossal defect by winemakers. "Corked" wine is considered undrinkable by anyone with a remotely sophisticated palate. "Cork taint," as it is often called, is present in an estimated 3 to 5% fo all cork-finished wine and costs the industry millions of dollars per year in lost sales revenue.


Form your own conclusions. h34r:

Warren -

 

[Kai]

I was basing that question on the comment that the beer is typically found without those characters in its home region.

I can see that it would add some desirable characteristics to have that cork there, the author of that paragraph sounds a bit disdaining of wine consumers though, what with his repeated use of the word "considered".

I once had a few 750mL Chimay bottles that were corked in the "corked" sense, that is by anyone with a remotely sophisticated palate (said tongue-in-cheek). It's definitely not something that's nice in anything more than subtle amounts.

 

[Malnourished]

Wine makers are moving away from cork, so I can't see why brewers shouldn't do the same. I think it's a similar situation to green bottles - they do it because they think it looks classy, even though it has the potential to ruin the taste of the beer. IMO, if La Bavaisienne uses regular caps, they all should. That said, I've had beers where the subtle cork character has added an interesting new dimension, but I'm not sure I've ever thought a beer tasted better for it.

And FWIW, I always thought of Trois Monts as something like Duvel fermented with a cleaner yeast (and less sugar) or a beefier Helles with a slightly less clean yeast. I suppose that's a Maibock, as Warren says. If I were cloning it I'd be tempted to even ditch the sugar entirely and just mash real low to get the dryness.

Also, if anyone finds Belgian Brewer's Golds in Australia please let me know!!!

 

[warrenlw63]

I was basing that question on the comment that the beer is typically found without those characters in its home region.

[post="107254"][/post]​

Think it may boil down to the problem Kai that any or most beers, from any part of the world stylistically-speaking gain their reputation and stylistic template from American consumers and what they taste. As for the quandry is the cork taint considered essential for the style? I'd say no. However you can bet your bottom dollar if you enter your own example of the style in a comp, sans cork/cellar character it will most likely be marked "lacking complexity". :blink:

I dare say BDGs would have in the past or do arrive there in a similar condition in the US to what we get them. So perhaps the cork taint is considered part of the style because that's what they taste over there like we do in most cases.

Bear in mind my own findings of these beeers does not extend to every brand of the genre. I drank prolific amounts of (do you blame me :lol: ) Jenlain and 3 Monts in France fresh beause they were the most freely available. The cork taint didn't exist. (almost to my chagrin). I've had La Choulette Ambree before but only in Australia. That had loads of the cellar character and a very individual yeast and caramel character also. Who's not to say that this develops over time as well.

Still think it may come down to how long these beers are kept by the brewer for before being released for sale. Some of the bigger producers of the style (Duyck & St. Sylvestre) would almost certainly get the stuff out the door to meet demand.

Warren -

 

[warrenlw63]

There ya go.

Straight from the BJCP. Just aids the confusion. :lol:

16D. Bire de Garde
Aroma: Prominent malty sweetness, often with a complex, light to moderate toasty character. Low to moderate esters. Little to no hop aroma (may be a bit spicy). Commercial versions will often have a musty, woodsy, cellar-like character that is difficult to achieve in homebrew. Paler versions will still be malty but will lack richer, deeper aromatics and may have a bit more hops. No diacetyl.

Appearance: Three main variations exist (blond, amber and brown), so color can range from golden blonde to reddish-bronze to chestnut brown. Clarity is good to poor, although haze is not unexpected in this type of often unfiltered beer. Well-formed head, generally white to off-white (varies by beer color), supported by high carbonation.

Flavor: Medium to high malt flavor often with a toasty, toffee-like or caramel sweetness. Malt flavors and complexity tend to increase as beer color darkens. Low to moderate esters and alcohol flavors. Medium-low hop bitterness provides some support, but the balance is always tilted toward the malt. The finish is medium-dry and malty. Alcohol can provide some additional dryness in the finish. Low to no hop flavor, although paler versions can have slightly higher levels of spicy hop flavor (which can also come from the yeast). Smooth, well-lagered character. No diacetyl.
Mouthfeel: Medium to medium-full body, often with a smooth, silky character. Moderate to high carbonation. Moderate alcohol, but should be very smooth and never hot.

Overall Impression: A fairly strong, malty, lagered artisanal farmhouse ale.
History: Name literally means beer which has been kept or lagered. A traditional artisanal farmhouse ale from Northern France brewed in early spring and kept in cold cellars for consumption in warmer weather. It is now brewed year-round. Related to the Belgian Saison style, the main difference is that the Bire de Garde is rounder, richer, sweeter, malt-focused, often has a cellar character, and lacks the spicing and tartness of a Saison.

Comments: Three main variations are included in the style: the brown (brune), the blond (blonde), and the amber (ambre). The darker versions will have more malt character, while the paler versions can have more hops (but still are malt-focused beers). A related style is Bire de Mars, which is brewed in March (Mars) for present use and will not age as well.

Ingredients: The cellar character in commercial examples is unlikely to be duplicated in homebrews as it comes from indigenous yeasts and molds. Commercial versions often have a corked, dry, astringent character that is often incorrectly identified as cellar-like. Homebrews therefore are usually cleaner. Base malts vary by beer color, but usually include pale, Vienna and Munich types. Darker versions will have richer malt complexity and sweetness from crystal-type malts. Lager or ale yeast fermented at cool ale temperatures, followed by long cold conditioning. Soft water. Floral or spicy continental hops.

Vital Statistics: OG: 1.060 1.080
IBUs: 20 30 FG: 1.012 1.018
SRM: 6 19 ABV: 6 8%

Commercial Examples: Jenlain (brown), St. Amand (brown), ChTi Brun (brown), ChTi Blond (blond), La Choulette (all 3 versions), La Choulette Bire des Sans Culottes (blonde), Saint Sylvestre 3 Monts (blonde), Biere Nouvelle (brown), Castelain (blonde), Jade (amber), Brasseurs Bire de Garde (amber)

Warren -

 

[Malnourished]

Has anyone got their hands on the new Wyeast 3725 Biere de Garde yet? Or the Farmhouse Ale (3726 I think)? I can't wait to try both...

 

[neonmeate]

Has anyone got their hands on the new Wyeast 3725 Biere de Garde yet? Or the Farmhouse Ale (3726 I think)? I can't wait to try both...

[post="107396"][/post]​

got any more info? i can't find anything on the wyeast site.
sounds promising...