Toucan Coopers Stout & Hops Question

[benny_bjc]

hi,

I'm planning on making a stout....

I'm thinking of using the coopers stout can + the coopers dark ale can and then adding extra grains and possibly malts & hops.

1) Firstly if I was to use a coopers stout can and a dark ale can made up to 20L with no extra ingredients, what would be the approximate alcohol %.??

I'm aiming for something around 7-9%.

I would like something that is very full bodied and has a lot of flavour, dark coffee and chocolate, but probably not too much burnt flavours. I like the coopers best extra stout and would like to make something along those lines but beef it up (body and flavour wise)

2) Approx how much, and which steeping grains would you add to achieve this flavour and character?

3) Is extra hops necessary? both for bittering and balancing out the extra malt? If so what would you suggest as a good option for this style and flavour?? How much and when would you add them?

4) If I do need more malt to achieve this higher alcohol and body, what would you use (Light or dark malts) and how much?

5) I'm planing on reculturing yeast from a coopers bottle, will 2 stubbies worth be enough yeast to handle the higher alcohol levels or do I need more yeast, or pitch extra yeast mid fermentation?

Sorry for so many questions!!!

Thanks Heaps!!

CHEERS!

 

[microbe]

Using this page says that just the two cans in 20L will yield approx 6.2% alc. Adding malt (just 1/2Kg of DME) will take that up above 7%. That's unfortunately about all the help I can be. Someone else will be along shortly no doubt to add more.

Cheers,

microbe

 

[benny_bjc]

Using this page says that just the two cans in 20L will yield approx 6.2% alc. Adding malt (just 1/2Kg of DME) will take that up above 7%. That's unfortunately about all the help I can be. Someone else will be along shortly no doubt to add more.

Cheers,

microbe

Thanks! Every bit of help counts!

 

[mwd]

Did that Toucan with Morgans Molloys Irish Stout + Coopers Dark Ale + 500g DME + 500g Dark Treacle.

Us-05 yeast 23litres no extra hops. SG 1.060

Could be what you are looking for. I don't think you will need any extra hops unless for aroma or to add a bit of different flavour. The toucans are plenty bitter enough.

Can feel the warmth of the alcohol not sure of the ABV but must be up there 7% ++ IMO.

Very nice stout to drink in small quantities its a bit powerful flavourwise for quaffing by the pint.

Also makes a cracking Black and Tan with a decent bitter added. :icon_cheers:

 

[WarmBeer]

I just tonight brewed this same stout:
- 1x Coopers Stout
- 1x Coopers Dark Ale
- 500g DDME
- 100g Choc Grain
- Danstar Nottingham yeast
- 23 lt

I got a SG of 1052, and the colour of old sump oil. Assuming a finishing gravity of 1010, this should give me an ABV of 6.1%.

I would just suggest you get a hard working yeast to chew through a high gravity wort. I'm not sure that a re-cultured Coopers yeast is going to be up to it, but you'll never know until you have a go.

Hey, you might just make up your own brand new category - Australian Toucan Stout.

 

[Bribie G]

Last winter I brewed a toucan of Coopers Stout plus 1kg LDME plus 750g dex, Nottingham Ale Yeast and dry hopped with some fuggles after a week in the fermenter. It ended up over 8% ABV and was a nice smooth drop, not too bitter and was quite drinkable after a month in the bottle.

I made it in August for Xmas, and in November the sister in law came up from Sydney and brought me a six pack of Sheaf Stout. I did a side by side test and noted that the Sheaf had far more hop aroma and flavour. When I do this brew again in the winter I'll probably add some more aroma hops, maybe a strong hop tea made with 30g Cluster added in secondary.

Apart from that it's an easy brew and a lovely drop but a total head banger :super:

 

[benny_bjc]

Thanks heaps everyone!

Gathering from the last post, aroma hops for this brew would be a good idea. Obviously you don't want to distract too much from the malt and grain flavours (coffee, chocolate, roasted flavours) which dominate stouts.
I'm not really fimilar with fuggles or cluster hops so what do you guys think would complement this beer well as an aroma hop??
or any other hops you can suggest as good alternatives?

As for grain... would you stick to using 100g of chocolate grain or would you use a mixture of grains, (i.e. chocolate, black, roasted, crystal etc) I'm after something with chocolate and black coffee characteristics.

Thanks again!!!

P.S. Out of interest does anyone know what hops (bittering and aroma) are used in the coopers best extra stout (commercial beer).

 

[j1gsaw]

I did a Toucan with 2x coopers brewmaster stout cans
1x morgans caramalt
1kg dex
fuggles 2x teabags
23 L
OG 1090
FG 1030

Turned out very strong, very stouty.... huge flavours... bring on winter around the campfire!

 

[RdeVjun]

This is getting a teensy bit OT, but is in the stout groove. One thing that I've tried and found fantastic in this sort of stout is Star Anise, in dryer Irish in particular, it may suit the richer toucans as well. Its not everyone's cup of tea, but it floats my boat, so give it a whirl if you're after something different.

This anise twist gives dry stout an interesting liquorice- like aroma and flavour and has been well received around here, as evidenced by dwindling stocks of this stuff. I prefer it with dry, some may like it with sweet stout, it just seems more like a flavoured fizzy drink (eg. sarsparilla) in the latter, but that's probably just me. It goes quite well of course with asian tucker, but I wouldn't have thought stout needs any particular food accompaniment to be enjoyed.

For a regular 23 litre batch, treat it like flavour hops, add about 25 - 50g to some of your malt boiling for about 20 minutes. If you have a mortar and pestle, just roughly break it up, if not, don't worry, its not really that important, just use a bit more- its not expensive at all. Throw it in a hopbag, or strain it out at the end. Add other hops as per your normal schedule or you can also add it to secondary as per steeped or dry hop additions, I'd at least steep it, or even a mini- boil, but I don't think it needs any malt for utilisation as hops do. This latter secondary addition method would be good for folks who are willing to test it but don't want to do a whole brew's- worth and also have a couple of smaller cubes for a split batch, obviously one cube with the anise, the other nowt. I've even added it at bottling, but that was when I was young and stupid, although it did work. Oh, and sorry, I do keep banging on about this anise caper. :wacko:

Fennel is another spice I'm considering, anyone else ever heard of it being done? I remember hearing about chickory recently, and of course coffee has been a popular flavour and aroma boost before. Blends of these is going to get complex, but I might get into fiddling about with them after I've done the upcoming wedding batches.

Just getting back to the OP for a bit, some Roasted Barley would be worthwhile, even though, like me, you're probably hoping to avoid the burnt flavours. Being roasted, it sounds like it would ruin the flavour, but in small amounts it doesn't seem to at all. 100g maximum I'd suggest, even less to begin with, I too would be interested in other steeping grains.

Also, if you want to stick with an Irish, or Dry style stout, keep the later additions (in the boil) or dry/steeped hop (end of primary/ into secondary) down, the standard is for little or no hop aroma, but a fair whack of bittering. Here's a very useful guide. Otherwise, it becomes an American, that's probably not such a terrible thing or as bad as it sounds , its just different and, even so, mine often get a bit with a steeped teabag at secondary to brighten it up, particularly if it doesn't have the Star Anise.

WRT reculturing from stubbies and innoculating your toucan, see a closely- related thread here, and if you do reculture, I'd strongly suggest you make sure it is as vigorous and also as large as you possibly can- don't leave this aspect to chance. If you're not familiar with rehydration and starters, as per BribieG's post, I'd recommend just getting two packs of either Nottingham or US-05, but I usually avoid the Coopers kit yeast sachets. Although other correspondents may have been happy with it, this toucan method is probably taking it out of its comfort zone even if it does have a reputation for climbing out the top of fermenters at the start- its the finishing that might be the worry for it. Pitch with one pack initally, if it fails to finish satisfactorily (like mine), throw the other one in too and stand back.

Good luck with it, hope it tears the fork out of a chilly wintry night around the fire! :icon_cheers:

 

[Bizier]

I did a stout/dark toucan + a fair whack of fuggles... my god it was bitter and fairly thin too. Some people enjoyed this, but not me.

If you do this, I suggest a good amount of crystal and maybe carapils to balance it out with some sweetness and dextrines respectively.

 

[benny_bjc]

ok.. so I'm trying to jot a few things on paper now...

so far:

1 X Coopers Stout Can
1 X Coopers Dark Ale Can

1.5kg extra liquid malt (light or dark)

(Taken from the Craftbrewer website - grains)

50g Chocolate
(Adds strong coffee flavor to your beer. The flavour is sharp & somewhat acrid. Used in Porters and sweet Stout)

50g Choc Chit
(Sweeter, & more chocolate-like than regular chocolate malt.)

100g Dark Crystal
(Distinctive intense caramel, toffee flavour,with hints of burnt, roasted flavours. Improves head retention, aroma & body.)

Hows this looking so far? Would you consider adding black malt grain or roasted grain, or does the above grains provide enough roasted flavour?

Fermenter made up to 20 Litres...

Thanks again everyone!
and thanks RDEVjun for your indepth post. I will try the anise in a stout brew later down the track after I have experimented a bit.

 

[Bizier]

My instinct says more crystal, but this is purely preference.

I'd go 100g of choc chit too or swap the other choc to pale choc. Black malt will add to perceived bitterness somewhat.

IMHO in future, you are better off getting a lighter kit and turning it into a stout, then you are more in the driving seat.

 

[benny_bjc]

My instinct says more crystal, but this is purely preference.

I'd go 100g of choc chit too or swap the other choc to pale choc. Black malt will add to perceived bitterness somewhat.

IMHO in future, you are better off getting a lighter kit and turning it into a stout, then you are more in the driving seat.

ok so 100g choc chit and no black malt.

As for more crystal... do you mean like 250g or a lot more???

 

[Bizier]

This is purely my opinion here, so accept anything else with equal weight.

I would go 100 choc chit, no other choc, and maybe 250g dark crystal.

Re: yeast, I suggest forget the reculture unless you are a sanitation and yeast herding ninja.
I would suggest 2 packets of rehydrated S04 (http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=913)

I also think that a good week or so of dry hopping with EKG or fuggles would go down a treat too.

 

[benny_bjc]

This is purely my opinion here, so accept anything else with equal weight.

I would go 100 choc chit, no other choc, and maybe 250g dark crystal.

Re: yeast, I suggest forget the reculture unless you are a sanitation and yeast herding ninja.
I would suggest 2 packets of rehydrated S04 (http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=913)

I also think that a good week or so of dry hopping with EKG or fuggles would go down a treat too.

Thanks for your suggestions.
I presume the cans already have plenty of coffee/roast flavour without adding the extra chocolate malt, so like you say the chocolate malt is not really necessary.
I have already scrapped the idea of recultured yeast.

 

[benny_bjc]

Also, Do you think it would be a good idea to add Lactose sugar???
or will this take it away from what I am trying to achieve?

 

[boingk]

I'd ditch the lactose, as it is an unfermentable sugar derived from milk which will give a lot of body and sweetness. It looks like you don't need this in your current recipe, what with the malt additions and toucan base.

Cheers - boingk

 

[Interloper]

Fermenter made up to 20 Litres...

With that much fermentable you could treat yourself to another litre of water at least.

Maybe don't go to 23L but you could easy go 21-22 with that and it would still have heaps of body.

 

[benny_bjc]

Considering I am using the coopers stout can and the coopers dark can plus the extra grains.... does it make any difference whether I use Light Liquid Malt or Dark Liquid as the extra 1.5kg of malt to increase the body and alcohol content??

What do you suggest?

Thanks

 

[WarmBeer]

Considering I am using the coopers stout can and the coopers dark can plus the extra grains.... does it make any difference whether I use Light Liquid Malt or Dark Liquid as the extra 1.5kg of malt to increase the body and alcohol content??

What do you suggest?

Thanks

You'll get a slightly darker beer from the Dark extract, obviously, but with those two cans plus grains, it's already going to be black as spades. Light is usually cheaper (at least for dry extracts), so save yourself a buck and go the LLME.

Cheers,

Brett