Thoughts On Vegetarianism

[philw]

Yep I do think that people should be aware that a steak actually came from somewhere. I fully recognise that people can do whatever they want and that the vast majority of people don't care and are happy living in ignorance as to how their steak arrived at their table.

I simply believe that if you are going to eat meat, show some empathy, respect and care to the creatures that you have killed. If you aren't the sort of person that can kill an animal, why are you eating it?

yep I agree and the only thing I felt when I last killed an animal was the recoil.

I agree my 5 year old knows where her dinner comes from and I make a point to let her know
she has also asked to eat Duck, and Venison with out being prompted to try it

some people can not deal with being able to kill something to eat them selves, ( My mrs is one of them )
however she really enjoys a nice steak

And regarding tradition, I don't believe tradition to be a good enough reason to do anything. Think for yourself dammit.

nothing wrong with tradition's I am a fisher and hunter and not going to change any time soon.


I am all for animal welfare,and having respect for animals.

however animal rights are another thing all together.
I am surprised that the terrorist organisation PeTa has not been brought up more... won't someone thing about the sea kittens

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

It was probably a small gathering of 3.

Do they have any friends?

I can understand their feelings but not their actions.

Andrew

Actually a packout and a ******* good party. Still here and still drinking some amazing beer, albeit at some pretty amazing prices.

Bank account taking a bit of a whack tOnight when rounds are this pricey.

Still good company and amazing beers and only a few lamb burgers!

 

[Cube]

I've had, seen, read and overheard this very topic being discussed so many times I care to forget most of them due to immature responses or uneducated other parties. What it all boils down to is individualistic (or in most cases to be cool like their mates or missus have them under their thumb) theories and beliefs.

Every single time it all ends in 'you eat meat, if you can't get your hands bloody and kill it' .... blah blah. It's the same end result as trying to have a conversation with a religious nut. It will NEVER EVER end in an agreement or a simple 'agree to disagree'. It will never happen. Ever. It is sad but true that it happens that people are so into whatever they are that it isolates them from others.

I am chef in my house and we have meat nights and vegetarian nights every week. Not because of this pansy can't kill for meat myself ugg ugg he-man wannabe retort. Because I like it and want to.

 

[Brown_hound]

I've had, seen, read and overheard this very topic being discussed so many times I care to forget most of them due to immature responses or uneducated other parties. What it all boils down to is individualistic (or in most cases to be cool like their mates or missus have them under their thumb) theories and beliefs.

Every single time it all ends in 'you eat meat, if you can't get your hands bloody and kill it' .... blah blah. It's the same end result as trying to have a conversation with a religious nut. It will NEVER EVER end in an agreement or a simple 'agree to disagree'. It will never happen. Ever. It is sad but true that it happens that people are so into whatever they are that it isolates them from others.

I am chef in my house and we have meat nights and vegetarian nights every week. Not because of this pansy can't kill for meat myself ugg ugg he-man wannabe retort. Because I like it and want to.

:beerbang:

Gloriously simplified without being... Well... Simple.

Well said Cube.

The essence of what it all boils down to....

Don't try to impose your own beliefs on everyone else...


There's NO right
There's NO wrong.

Simple.

 

[Brewing_Brad]

I ******' love this forum!

This has got to be one of the best discussions I've seen on here - in the limited time that I've been here! There's been fantastic arguments for and against, there's been ********* trying to get a rise, there's been ********* being....well, *********. But for the most part it's been incredibly civil and well articulated.

I reckon Brown_hound sums it up best in that last post:

Don't try to impose your own beliefs on everyone else...

There's NO right
There's NO wrong.

Who knew brewers could be so deep? You guys rock!

 

[Malted]

I am surprised that the terrorist organisation PeTa has not been brought up more...

@Philw - LOL! Whilst radical and trying to ruin some agricultural industries I wouldn't call them terrorists, I'd reserve that for Sea Shepherd. (I guess that is the tongue in cheek emoticon?)

@JonnyAnchovy - were you at that PETA meeting or just the same venue?

 

[Malted]

Who knew brewers could be so deep? You guys rock!

Still beer runs deep.
Does this mean we should all drink more real ale? Would you call that still?

 

[Malted]

That attachment was gold!

 

[Ronin]

The essence of what it all boils down to....

Don't try to impose your own beliefs on everyone else...

This isn't about trying to impose your belief's on others. Not all ideological discussions are.

There's NO right
There's NO wrong.

Simple.

Too simple. Too black and white.

Off topic, but...

Is murder right or wrong?
Stealing?
Child abuse?
Drugs?
Smoking?
Drinking?
Religious belief?
Helping people?
Donating money to charities?

Of course there is right or wrong, but just like diet it isn't always transferable to others.

Not enough grey

James

 

[Ronin]

That attachment was gold!

Yes, made me laugh out loud.

 

[newguy]

I am surprised that the terrorist organisation PeTa has not been brought up more...

I resent you calling PETA a terrorist organization. I'm a proud member of PETA (People for the Evisceration of Tiresome Activists).....on second thought I guess that does sound a bit like a terrorist organization.

 

[philw]

@Philw - LOL! Whilst radical and trying to ruin some agricultural industries I wouldn't call them terrorists, I'd reserve that for Sea Shepherd. (I guess that is the tongue in cheek emoticon?)

Sea Shepherd yes they are.

however PETA help fund the legal fees for ALF and ELF both organisations are considered terrorists groups



then again I am a member of the other PeTA group People Eating Tasty Animals

 

[philw]

Jim Gaffigan talks about food

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

Just at the same venue, and happy to report no terrorist attacks.


Bit silly trying to compare them to terrorists, isn't it? I mean I think factory farms look a lot more like treblinka than PETA looks like the red brigades...

 

[Malted]

I resent you calling PETA a terrorist organization. I'm a proud member of PETA (People for the Evisceration of Tiresome Activists).....on second thought I guess that does sound a bit like a terrorist organization.

See now if you were from further south across the border, you might have a differing opinion.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Cows are vegetarian so I dont see the problem there....

I could not care less if you are a vego or vegan, I just hate it when these nutjobs force their ideals upon me



Now, where is my thick cut piece of rump....

 

[jlm]

Cows are vegetarian so I dont see the problem there....

I could not care less if you are a vego or vegan, I just hate it when these nutjobs force their ideals upon me



Now, where is my thick cut piece of rump....

It does work both ways though (and for the record I do eat meat, but only once or twice a week on average). I generally don't try to force my way of thinking with these things upon other people, but I'm often asked what's that I'm eating at work (my standard smoko is roast eggplant and capsicum on turkish bread wih cheese and pesto/chutney depending what's availabe in the garden, toasted) because it smells good. Which ususally leads to the question "where's the meat?", which generally leads to me explaining my outlook on food (which for the most part has already been discussed here) and I'm then usually informed that I'm wasting my time or worse, and a lot of people seem to have a hard time letting it go.
Personally I don't blame vegetarian/vegan folk for spreading the word about their beliefs, I'd imagine their a tiny minority in a sea of omnivores out there, and I think its merely the fact that they think differently to the status quo which upsets most people.

Very good thread, enjoying the debate and a lot of the links that are thrown up.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Sure but I doubt (and hope) that you're so sadistic you would cause unnecessary pain were that not the case. You don't go out of your way to hurt the reature that will become your food.

It stands to reason that less distressed animals will make better eating.

This is true, stressed animals make for bad meat... ie tougher.

If you go to an abattoir you will noticed that the animals are kept very calm and quite, in fact you will see signs up saying not to bring dogs in so they dont stir up the animals.

People who say its cruel to kill animals to eat really need to go and actually look at the practices used. The aninals are killed very quickly by a single shot to the head, killing them instantly. If they dont die instantly and thrash about, the meat will be no good due to the adrenalin rush in the meat.

And this latest add from coles about hormone free meat is absolute bollocks... Hormones are not used in mainstream beef production. This marketing falsely implies that beef is generally full of hormones when it is not

And yes, meat chickens are a different breed from egg chickens

 

[jlm]

And yes, meat chickens are a different breed from egg chickens

OT, but........ Dorking x Indian Game. Best meat bird ever.

 

[manticle]

I could not care less if you are a vego or vegan, I just hate it when these nutjobs force their ideals upon me

I agree but as Bum alluded to earlier, I see more omnivores getting uppity when people mention they're vego than I see vegos get uppity about someone else eating a burger.

Couple that with the endless jokes about getting some steak into them and it all gets a bit tedious.

I tried vegetarianism years ago (for just under a year) and have a lot of vego friends. Partner was vego for 4 or 5 years. I've also worked in kitchens and watched chefs put chicken stock in Vegetable based soups and seen the limited number of options for people making a dietary choice.

I love meat too much to give it up and I feel quite happy with this decision. I don't feel evil when I eat a nice bit of roo or pigeon but I don't need to push it on those who choose otherwise. I'd like to see the meat idustry (and egg, dairy etc industries) push towards using more ethical practices but the amount of weight that drops off me if I don't eat meat or fish (skinny bastard anyway) is alarming.

Having said that, I was quite proud of myself on the various ocassions when a waitress would request a meat based dish for staff meal because the last one I cooked looked and smelt so good, telling me 'I've been vegetarian for 7 years'. This happened quite a few times over my kitchen career but I guess is more ego about my own cooking skills than me trying to shove my ideas down someone's throat. I was asked - I never offered.

Another interesting point - fish oil supposedly aids in alleviating depression. How many other beneficial chemicals are found in various animal based products that don't have an alternative, non animal based source?

 

[newguy]

This is true, stressed animals make for bad meat... ie tougher.

Absolutely true. When I have time I like to hunt (not much free time for it lately though) and you can taste the difference between a clean kill (ie 1 shot to drop) and something that was "gut shot" and ran for hours before you tracked it down and dropped it for good. Clean kill = tender, stressed animal = leather. Mom, 45 years after the fact, still talks about dad's "1,000 year old moose" that he shot. In order to be able to eat it, mom would have to put supper's roast into the oven at 10am (@ very low heat).

 

[Ronin]

People who say its cruel to kill animals to eat really need to go and actually look at the practices used.

There are also people who believe that they need not be killed at all, regardless of the methods used.

Hormones are not used in mainstream beef production.

What about growth promoter, antibiotics by a different name?

I work in vaccine development, my PhD was in veterinary vaccines. I know for a fact that it is easier and cheaper to give the animals low levels of antibiotics as "growth promoters" to stop them getting sick and not putting on weight.

This causes a huge amount of problems in the development of antibiotic resistant bacteria strains and is a practice that I think is a little bit stupid.

James

 

[Infinitee]

Complex animal-fats, esp. from predatory organism are beyond replacement by plant based lipids.
Levels of assimilable iron and b12, incomparable.
Milk/bones as calcium, Liver for vit A (more than 7x any green source, and more assimilable)
Brains for sheer weight of Omega 3.
Selenium, which is all but depleted from intensively-farmed soils.
Complex hormones, pheromones, cartilage, marrow and acids resulting from aerobic animalus.

To some degree, the body will absorb the amino's it needs from your diet and discard the excess
But to some degree ALSO, amino absorption is relative to the proportion supplied.

This means your protein profile needs to be fairly apt and balanced for your health and proper internal vitamin synthesis etc.
Which is why meat acts like a buffer, filling in any missing gaps in your otherwise grain-dominated proteins.

I know I must seem like a barrow-pushing dietary-judger, but truly, I mostly know veggo's and have not met one who has made the perfect veggo diet and can match me for endurance.
I truly am only concerned about health of the novel organism that is a human being (Save the Humans!).
Lacking the right lipids, as manticle mentioned, can result in depression, inability for proper brain development and our bodies have long evolved towards losing the ability to synthesise our own vitaminerals from having ample sources in our diets.
A microscopically slight variance in heavy metals can cause or alleviate severe psychological conditions such as schizophrenia and bipolar.

I urge all to be cautious with the transient temporal temple of fleeting flesh that is your one and only body.
But considering we're all home brewers here and eat a decent suspension of fungus (yeast) daily, I'm sure all our B-vitamin and complete-protein levels are up to scratch.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

There are also people who believe that they need not be killed at all, regardless of the methods used.



What about growth promoter, antibiotics by a different name?

I work in vaccine development, my PhD was in veterinary vaccines. I know for a fact that it is easier and cheaper to give the animals low levels of antibiotics as "growth promoters" to stop them getting sick and not putting on weight.

This causes a huge amount of problems in the development of antibiotic resistant bacteria strains and is a practice that I think is a little bit stupid.

James

Yes.. Antibiotics are an issue, in fact the biggest consumers of antibiotics in general is the animal sector, far more is consumed there than by humans. And unfortunatly they do make their way into the environment.

I actually refuse to take antibiotics ( except if i was dying ) because most are generally not required, and the reason most doctors prescribe them is because the patient wants them.

But that is another debate..


Now... where is that steak.....

 

[Ronin]

Complex animal-fats, esp. from predatory organism are beyond replacement by plant based lipids.
Levels of assimilable iron and b12, incomparable.
Milk/bones as calcium, Liver for vit A (more than 7x any green source, and more assimilable)
Brains for sheer weight of Omega 3.
Selenium, which is all but depleted from intensively-farmed soils.
Complex hormones, pheromones, cartilage, marrow and acids resulting from aerobic animalus.

To some degree, the body will absorb the amino's it needs from your diet and discard the excess
But to some degree ALSO, amino absorption is relative to the proportion supplied.

I don't think that anyone is argueing that animal meat is not an incredibly nutrient dense food. Most people's intake of essential nutrients (especially protein) is well above what is required.

Sorry what is aerobic animalus? I haven't encountered that term before and a quick google search comes up with nothing.

This means your protein profile needs to be fairly apt and balanced for your health and proper internal vitamin synthesis etc.
Which is why meat acts like a buffer, filling in any missing gaps in your otherwise grain-dominated proteins.

Yep I agree which is why as I said earlier I believe a vegetarian diet is an extremely hard thing to do successfully. It takes a lot of education and should not be entered into lightly. The amount of 'vegetarians' who simply leave the meat out of their diet is incredible.

I know I must seem like a barrow-pushing dietary-judger, but truly, I mostly know veggo's and have not met one who has made the perfect veggo diet and can match me for endurance.

Endurance in what? I'm up to doing half marathons, slowly getting further. I really don't find energy levels to be a problem. There are complete source of protein (at least) in the plant kingdom. As long as your diet is extremely varied, I don't believe it's a problem, and am still waiting for some peer reviewed literature to come out saying it is.

I truly am only concerned about health of the novel organism that is a human being (Save the Humans!).

We're not exactly an endangered species

But considering we're all home brewers here and eat a decent suspension of fungus (yeast) daily, I'm sure all our B-vitamin and complete-protein levels are up to scratch.

lol :icon_cheers:

Sry gotta run but I wasn't finished,

James

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

But cows are still vegans.. :icon_cheers:

 

[manticle]

Except when they get fed little pieces of themselves back to themselves (alleged cause of BSE).

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Lucky over here it is illegal to do so

 

[manticle]

Lucky and smart. Industry boomed here during that crisis. I remember any beef dishes we had at the restaurant I worked in at the time had to be pulled from the menu for a while as prices just went through the roof due to the cleanness of our beef and its relative export value.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Yes, we are very lucky in that respect....we have the only true traceable paddock to plate system in the world with NLIS


We are also very lucky, and should be proud that our beef is the best in the world in terms of contamination from chemicals, animal health and animal husbandry and quality..