Thoughts On The Use Of Feed-lot Grade Grains In Brewing

[fergi]

Great to see infinitee looking out of the "square"




I suggest that the majority are just fermentation assistants who are generally happy with the status quo of she'il be right mate, I know all that stuff give me a can/bag of malt and some dried yeast and I will call myself a brewer.

There is of course a bigger picture here. As stated before many, many farmers have their barley rejected for malting purely because they do not know the buyer well enough, suggestive that there is alot of malting grade barley going to feed-lot.

To make things worse, a hell of alot of MALTED barley also goes to feed-lot due to over-production and also FRESHNESS.

Considering that all the imported malts in Australia have sailed at sea for at least three months, one needs to consider just how fresh the product is and also if the same but fresher product can be produced simply and more cheaply right there at home?

food for thought

cheers

Darren

THATS A LOAD OF CRAP DARREN, COME TO THE SILOS ONE DAY AND SEE EXACTLY WHAT GOES ON, FARMERS ARE TOO SAVY TO HAVE THAT BULLSHIT PULLED ON THEM,they actually test the grain as we harvest to see exactly whats going on.


fergi

 

[floppinab]

Barley is harvested and taken to a drop off silo generally in the same district as grown. At this silo station it under go tests for grain consistency, nitrogen/protein, screenings for size of kernel. This then decides wether it is malting quality or feed and it is put into the correct section for storage and transport.

unless they have huge silo's to store grain for a better price. The problem with storing for a better price is that the local silo will have closed for the season and the farmer will have to wear the transport cost in bulk to a larger depot (usually in a major city with a dock). This transport can be a long way and at great cost.

You've contradicted yourself a little there Kleiny. I'm guessing you are saying that for the vast majority of the time the first part of the quote above is the case, so how common would the second part be. i.e. local storage on the farm with transport at a later date.

Could you elaborate on the the commercial side, just vaguely interested. The farm sells to who exactly, and I guess they then sell to the maltsters????

 

[Kleiny]

You've contradicted yourself a little there Kleiny. I'm guessing you are saying that for the vast majority of the time the first part of the quote above is the case, so how common would the second part be. i.e. local storage on the farm with transport at a later date.

Could you elaborate on the the commercial side, just vaguely interested. The farm sells to who exactly, and I guess they then sell to the maltsters????

Most of the time the harvest is taken from the paddock to the silos during harvest, This is because most farmers dont have to capacity to store large amounts of grain on site other than what they will use in the coming year for seed.

How common, not very unless you are a large corporation style farm with silo space and own transport. In our area if the price is crap you may keep it (if you can) for a later date or just for feed. e.g. in the 90's the price of oats dropped out and we had maybe 200 acres of oats in. The decision in our case was to keep the grain for sheep feed and sell some local to the hoarse stables, It was a pain in the arse to keep as we had to build temporary silos in the sheds. Overall not really worth the hassle but because the price at the pool silo was so crap it was actually costing money to harvest the crop.

On the commercial side the grain is basically accepted in 2 groups Malting and Feed with different grades there in Feed1, Feed2, Malt1, Malt2. The grain is stored at the local pool silo and the farmer gets paid going rate of the day (yes prices can vary each day or even during the day) what was $190/tonne can go up and down. This payment is comes from the commercial distributor AWB etc (there only was AWB originally but now there are aloud to be independent silos, which can offer higher or lower prices). Now this is where it gets a bit more complicated. AWB etc have contracts with major buyers to supply x amount of tonnes e.g. Suadi Arabia or china (the largest taker of malt barley in the world) who take it by the huge boat load. So they get paid from them. These grain could be stored for at least 6-12 months at the bulk silo's whilst the harvest finishes across the country and they are loaded for export.

The farmer can take a contract to supply x tonnes but there are risks, the contracted price could end up lower than the pool price or if you cant supply the full amount in a bad year there are clauses which spell out real problems.

I hope this answers some q's by no means am i an expert in the field and stand to be corrected at anytime. Maybe PM me if you want more info i can find some sources, just not on this thread as its getting away from the OP.

Kleiny

 

[floppinab]

Thanks for that, certainly going OT, so I'll stop there apart from saying a little digging myself on the GrainCorp and ABB websites has answered a number of my questions as well.

Edit : stuff already in another post

 

[raven19]

Raven,

Malt a bit and let us know how it goes.

Happy to give some a go myself for a bit of fun.

cheers

Darren

Sounds like a plan! Will keep you posted on progress.

 

[beerDingo]

I appreciate the bulk of the answers provided here ...

But I just thought there'd be less shit-slinging on a differently-approached idea ...

And some more experience with malting of base grains to brew with.

You people call yourself brewers?!

Good on ya, give it a go and get back to us!

We all have different reasons why we started to brew. However, I'd assume that the majority of us started so that we could make cheap beer. Then we discovered that we can make really nice beer (cheaply), and even better quality than the megaswill. Now we seem to buy more expensive beer when we actually buy it.

However, I'd say that those of us that continue to do it, either enjoy doing it as a hobby, and therefore like to try new and sometimes wacky things. Or continue to do it because we are making nice beer, at a fraction of the price than you can get it at a bottle shop.

So, go for it! Don't listen to those that tell you that you can ONLY use grain, hops, water and yeast! (even though, you are probably still using only these ingredients).

There is nothing wrong with trying to take your hobby/passion to the n'th degree! I'm sure some of the nay sayers do this, but just in other areas of their brewing.

 

[Infinitee]

^_^ What beautiful spirit.

That's what I needed.

& I know there's an innovative, creative bunch of bastards here
Just seeing what I could extract with the odd prod.

Sure delivered a response though :lol:

Kleiny, thanks for the insights. OT maybe, but it was sure interesting to me.

And BP, absinthe's post on his malt dryer kiln was excellent.
Was a bunch of links in that thread that were VERY enlightening.

Am growing my own grains atm.
One of the most informative bits of info in this thread for me has been the knowledge that too nitrogenous a grain will produce a poorer malt.
I will certainly withhold the compost and trial growing them with a bit less nutrient
Plainer grain, purer malt - makes sense.
Problem is if you want to make porridge from half your crop and malt from the other.

Here's to creativity, diversity, economy and ...
Yeah and to you lot as well.
I say old chaps, good thread!
:icon_cheers:

 

[Asher]

I have a question...

Why do maltsters kiln base malt? to dry it to preserve it mostly is my guess.

Why can't you just germinate a feed lot or any unmalted barley for that matter at home and just crush and mash with it straight away when it reached the correct modification (measure via acrospire length?)

Maybe add a little more specialty grain for any loss in melanoidins from not kilning the base malt.

Just an idea

Asher

 

[jonocarroll]

I have a question...Why do maltsters kiln base malt? to dry it to preserve it mostly is my guess.

Why can't you just germinate a feed lot or any unmalted barley for that matter at home and just crush and mash with it straight away when it reached the correct modification (measure via endosperm length?)

My understanding is that kilning:

- reduces the moisture content (may not be such an issue if using it straight away, but not sure)
- stops the germination process and denatures the enzymes responsible for germination, leaving those responsible for starch conversion.

Not sure how one would go with unkilned malt. Too difficult to crush?

Oh, and you mean acrospire length, not endosperm length, yeah?

 

[Darren]

I have a question...

Why do maltsters kiln base malt? to dry it to preserve it mostly is my guess.


Asher

Hi Asher,

To prevent mycotoxin contamination.

http://sgrl.csiro.au/aptc1998/16_webley_jackson.pdf

cheers

Darren

 

[Asher]

acrospire - yeah that what I ment...

They were the reasons I came up with off the top of my head:
- reduces the moisture content (so it doesn't go mouldy in storage - not storing it so no worries there)
- stops the germination process and denatures the enzymes responsible for germination, leaving those responsible for starch conversion (Milling and mashing will do that too)
- To prevent mycotoxin contamination (no time for fungi to grow - as mashing with it straight away).
Wait a minute... so does the kilning to above 100c kill any pre-existing mycotoxins? if so, then this could scuttle my theory!
Won't the boil kill any mycotoxins anyway?

.....So if infinitee could find a mill for crushing wet grain (good old porket to the rescue) he could be onto a winner



This was inspired by the bourbon in the bathtub recipe?
goes kinda like:

- Purchase 50kg bag of feed grad barley
- Pour into bathtub
- Wet/rinse/stir/drain for a week to germinate
- Put plug in
- Use stab mixer to macerate grain
- Fill with hot water from tap (very hot water) to get to mashing temp.
- Mash for however long it takes to cool back down
- Throw in a bag or two of turbo yeast
- leave for a week
- Shovel the lot into (something that isn't discussed on the forum)
- Take product and age for 10 years in oak
- Bobs your uncle

 

[Darren]

- To prevent mycotoxin contamination (no time for fungi to grow - as mashing with it straight away).
Wait a minute... so does the kilning to above 100c kill any pre-existing mycotoxins? if so, then this could scuttle my theory!
Won't the boil kill any mycotoxins anyway?

Nope, very heat resistant

cheers

Darren

 

[ausdb]

Just getting things slightly back on topic, I found this Norwegian brewers page with info on Home malting which is interesting.

 

[Kai]

I have a question...

Why do maltsters kiln base malt? to dry it to preserve it mostly is my guess.

Why can't you just germinate a feed lot or any unmalted barley for that matter at home and just crush and mash with it straight away when it reached the correct modification (measure via acrospire length?)

Maybe add a little more specialty grain for any loss in melanoidins from not kilning the base malt.

Just an idea

Asher

Off the top of my head I would also say kilning also reduces compounds like SMM (DMS precursor). Perhaps another factor to consider downstream in the brewing process.

Might be a way to make your lovely lagers extra pale though.

 

[Darren]

Off the top of my head I would also say kilning also reduces compounds like SMM (DMS precursor). Perhaps another factor to consider downstream in the brewing process.

Might be a way to make your lovely lagers extra pale though.

Kai,

Nup, Its the growth of fungal spores that have the potential to cause significant mortalty.

Just ask your local maltster obout Fusaruim species and their methods to keep it in control.

Also ask your supplier of imported malts of the levels of toxin contamination. Some contries will not take excessive levels ((EU)

cheers

darren

 

[MHB]

I think you will find that malt has to be allowed to rest for a couple of weeks after kilning before its used for brewing.
Cant remember the details but apparently you get really crappy beer from green malt, will look in a couple of books tonight.
Funny how all the textbooks start all out with a big section on malting before the section on brewing wonder if theres a link between good brewing malt and good beer and whether the authors think brewers should understand beers most basic ingredient.
MHB

 

[MHB]

Kunze says 4 weeks in silo before malt can be used, otherwise mashing and lautering problems will be encountered. Doesnt go into the mechanics of why.
MHB

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Kilning is to:

Dry the malt for stable storage (part of which is of course to prevent mold growth and the toxicity Darren refers to) but also to "kill" the grain, stop modification and respiration and to prevent other non lethal molds and insect infestation.

Dry off and allow the removal of the culmns (rootlets etc)

Drive off volatile flavour and aroma compounds - of which there are plenty including DMS

Develop colour and flavour - most of the "maltiness" you taste is derived from mailard reactions in the kiln.

Denaturing of enzymes is a side effect of kilning rather than an object - the enzymes responsible for germination... are mostly the ones that convert starch. Oh sure there are plenty in there that do get denatured, but that's not the object of the game.

But green malt and malt which has been only dried not kilned at higher temperatures is perfectly safe to use... not to store though. Brewers used to use a malt called "white malt" which was basically an unkilned dried malt, very enzymatically active, and I believe that this and also occasionally actual green malt is sometimes used in the distilling industry. As MHB suggested, I understand that green malt makes for nasty flavours in beer due to all the remaining volatile compounds.

The storage period for malt is at least partly about allowing the uneven moisture content in any given batch of malt to "even out" in the silo so that you get uniform performance out of your mills and thus predictable brewhouse performance.

That the way I understand it at least

Thirsty