1st All Grain Brew (BIAB) blues. Help please.

[Damn]

Hi all,

Recently I put a post for a recipe conversion from a partial to an all grain in which 1 contributor pointed out my 19L pot would be inadequate for a 22.5L batch. I thought I could do a concentrate and dilute it in the fermenter. Well after that education I raced out and bought myself a 50L pot. Here a my doubts and questions of the experience so far. I filled the pot with 35.5L water as per some calculators I sought and added the 5.5kg of grain. Sparked up my center wok burning gas burner on my 900 stove. I put in a floating thermometer and watched closely over the next 20-35mins the temp was still at only 45-50 deg. It took another hour to arrive at 66 deg (1 1/2 hours in total). During that raise in temp I also used a digital thermometer probe http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM7216. I noticed my floating thermometer was all over the shop. For instance my probe was saying 60 whereas my floater was saying 80. When I stirred the water a bit my floater would slowly correct to probes reading. Is that my floater is deeper that it is giving a different reading. I disregarded the floater and relied on the digital. As I'm a bull at a gate I can see I've made a few mistakes here.

1. My first concern is have I overcooked my grain as the floater may of been giving an accurate reading of deeper down in the pot? Or maybe I shouldn't leave the floater in the pot, only place it in as i need a reading? I could only stick my probe down 100mm but I trust there would be a fairly even distribution of heat through out the kettle.
2. My second is I'm a disappointed how long it took to get to target temp. I may start with hot water next time. This has blown out my brew times. I didn't really want to buy a large burner and use bottled gas as I'm concerned with the cost of bottled gas.
3. I started with 35.5L water aiming for a finished with 25L (2.5L over my aimed amount). I know I know I should of calibrated my kettle first but I trusted the 2 calculators I tried. Now my calculated OG is 1.044 rather than 1.049. I was thinking of dropping in 500g LDME to raise my OG back close to original target. Or should I just leave it at 1.044 and take it as a lesson learned. If I drop in the LDME, it won't be till Monday night as that's earliest I can get to the brew shop.

With giving me too much a kick up the backside could I have some feed back please. Thanks.

Damn Damian.

 

[PeteQ]

Woah do NOT add the grains in the bag until you reach strike temperate. I'm surprised that you didn't melt your bag!

Fill your pot with desired amount of water, bring to strike temp (work this out in brewmate software or similar) then drop grains in bag into the pot giving it a good mix around and then check your temps.

Dont worry about the DME just stick with what you've got and learn from your mistakes.

I hope this helps...

Cheers

Edit: do you have a lid for your pot? That helps a great deal with quickly reaching strike temp and ramping to boil.

 

[Econwatson]

Yeah no wonder it took so long with all that grain in there. Why not try a dry run and take 32 litres of water up to about 68 degrees and tell us how long it takes.

And when there is heat on and the bag is in, you should always be agitating the grain and keeping it off the bottom since you're grain will burn or your bag will melt.

I would just consistently use the probe, be sure to calibrate it though and make sure it reads 100c in boiling water.

 

[seamad]

Same as above re strike temp. As you get close to it give the water a good thrash around to get an accurate reading.
Might struggle with a stove top to get a good boil, you can float a cake tin to get a better boil if so.
Adjust your boil time if gravity is a bit low, ie if it's low just boil a bit longer.

 

[QldKev]

1. My first concern is have I overcooked my grain as the floater may of been giving an accurate reading of deeper down in the pot? Or maybe I shouldn't leave the floater in the pot, only place it in as i need a reading? I could only stick my probe down 100mm but I trust there would be a fairly even distribution of heat through out the kettle.
2. My second is I'm a disappointed how long it took to get to target temp. I may start with hot water next time. This has blown out my brew times. I didn't really want to buy a large burner and use bottled gas as I'm concerned with the cost of bottled gas.
3. I started with 35.5L water aiming for a finished with 25L (2.5L over my aimed amount). I know I know I should of calibrated my kettle first but I trusted the 2 calculators I tried. Now my calculated OG is 1.044 rather than 1.049. I was thinking of dropping in 500g LDME to raise my OG back close to original target. Or should I just leave it at 1.044 and take it as a lesson learned. If I drop in the LDME, it won't be till Monday night as that's earliest I can get to the brew shop.

1. Do you have a spoon? Stir the water and then get a temperature reading
2. Stoves suck big time for a full sized system, you wont get a decent boil. period... But you don't want to spend about $3 a batch of beer on LPG?
3. I would drop in the LDME in to get the correct gravity. Otherwise you are just making your life even hard as you go. You can add the LDME during the main ferment no problems. Are you sure you need 500g?

 

[Damn]

Woah do NOT add the grains in the bag until you reach strike temperate. I'm surprised that you didn't melt your bag!

Fill your pot with desired amount of water, bring to strike temp (work this out in brewmate software or similar) then drop grains in bag into the pot giving it a good mix around and then check your temps.

On Page 3 of the BIAB booklet in the pinned "A Guide to All-Grain Brewing In A Bag" it says to put the bag in whilst filling the kettle with water and add the grain straight away....correct me if I'm wrong.

"While the kettle is filling, add the mash bag (Appendix A has more information on mash bag construction) to the kettle and
turn your burner on as full as possible without flames leaping up the sides. Burners come with air adjustment rings which
should be adjusted so that the flame is blue—no yellow. Make sure that your mash bag is in no danger of burning.
When the kettle has been filled to the required volume, add the grain."


"But you don't want to spend about $3 a batch of beer on LPG?"....Would cost a bit more the $3/Batch. Couldn't see getting much more than 2-3 brews with a swap N Go.

 

[PeteQ]

I've not read that one Damn... but this post pushed me to all grain and worked for me (and probably many others)

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/38674-move-to-all-grain-for-thirty-bucks/

 

[Econwatson]

On Page 3 of the BIAB booklet in the pinned "A Guide to All-Grain Brewing In A Bag" it says to put the bag in whilst filling the kettle with water and add the grain straight away....correct me if I'm wrong.

"While the kettle is filling, add the mash bag (Appendix A has more information on mash bag construction) to the kettle and
turn your burner on as full as possible without flames leaping up the sides. Burners come with air adjustment rings which
should be adjusted so that the flame is blue—no yellow. Make sure that your mash bag is in no danger of burning.
When the kettle has been filled to the required volume, add the grain."


"But you don't want to spend about $3 a batch of beer on LPG?"....Would cost a bit more the $3/Batch. Couldn't see getting much more than 2-3 brews with a swap N Go.

Regardless of what the guide says, I wouldn't attempt BIAB without having first seen a demo.

Go down to Grain and Grape and catch one of the demonstrations from experienced brewers.

With regard to the gas, you could put one of those elements in over the side instead. Maybe one of the other brewers could point you in the direction of a good one. Maybe one like this? http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3853

 

[Camo6]

Hey Damian,

BIAB is dead easy once you've done it a couple of times. Use a program like Brewmate (free) to get a desired "mash in" temp or just add a couple of degrees to your desired "mash" temp. When you're a few degrees from mash in turn off the gas and stir like buggery. Let the temp stabilise for a minute and turn gas back on if need be. It's easier to raise the temp than take it away. Once your at 'mash in' temps add your grain then check your at 'mash' temps. Add more heat if your under. No need to add your grain earlier than this, you'll tackle stepped mashes later .

Using your wok burner is gonna take forever with those volumes. Hot water and a lid will help but a decent burner will make all the difference. Once you figure out your system you should be able to get 5-6 batches per bottle minimum. I always believed a vigorous boil was mandatory but have found a rolling boil is far more predictable and uses a lot less gas.

If your 2.5l over target and your OG's low sounds like your boil off rate was insufficient. A bigger burner will change this. I just knocked out a batch of DSGA tonight. Haven't brewed this since my first BIAB and I too got 1044 OG tonight! I'm suspecting my boil off rate was to blame for this as I'm still working out my 3V. I've found with gas that predicting boil off rate is a lot harder than electric as it's more variable.

Anyway sounds like you've made beer. Whether it's stronger or weaker than planned it's still gonna taste deeelicious. I think the best thing to do is ferment that sucker and get another batch cooking ASAP. Half of this hobby is trial and error, the other half is being pissed.

Cheers

Cam.

 

[manticle]

Not sure if you're reading the guide correctly (haven't read it myself and don't BIAB) but definitely get to strike temp before adding grain.

 

[roverfj1200]

First well done for having a go. You have learnt heaps Hay.

Yes get the water up to strike (68c?) and add your grain.

You will need more heat if you can but you can work with what you have.

Not sure but with the time to reach mash you may get a lower FG.

BUT at the end of it all you will have beer,

Cheers

 

[philmud]

If your mash temp was 80c, my understanding is you may have a lot if tannins in your wort which won't taste great. Plus a higher mash temp = less fermentable beer, do you might not hit your FG.

 

[professional_drunk]

+1 for the gg biab demo. I watched and asked questions there and when I was ready to do my first brew, it went well.

I use a floating thermometer too. Disregard the reading if you haven't stirred the pot because you need to equalize the cold and hot spots.

I made a mistake on one of my brews where I undershot my target gravity. I just stayed with it anyway and it ended up being a good beer albeit light beer.

Also I think that guide meant stick your biab bag in the pot, hit your strike temp, then add your grain.

 

[timmi9191]

Not sure of your advice of not being able to do a 22.5l batch with a 19 pot?? I do it all all the time. Did a 10 min IPA yesterday.

I use a 25l willow esky as a mash tun. Bag and grain in the esky. Bring water to strike temp in pot on stove. Will usually be around 12l of water based on 3l/kg of grain. Get strike temp calculation from here http://www.brewheads.com/strike.php

Mix and seal esky and start timer. Close to end of mash, heat another 8l in pot to desire temp to sparge. Lift bag and allow to drain and place into pot for required sparge time.

At end of sparge time, drain bag. Place liquor from mashtun into pot, place back on stove and bring to boil. Usually takes about 20 mins to bring to boil. Boil and add hops as required. Transfer to fermenter and top to required volume with cold water.

Seal fermenter and sit in ice bath until at pitch temp.

I find I'm usually within .03 of required gravity and have 23l batch from a 19l pot..

 

[QldKev]

On Page 3 of the BIAB booklet in the pinned "A Guide to All-Grain Brewing In A Bag" it says to put the bag in whilst filling the kettle with water and add the grain straight away....correct me if I'm wrong.

"While the kettle is filling, add the mash bag (Appendix A has more information on mash bag construction) to the kettle and
turn your burner on as full as possible without flames leaping up the sides. Burners come with air adjustment rings which
should be adjusted so that the flame is blue—no yellow. Make sure that your mash bag is in no danger of burning.
When the kettle has been filled to the required volume, add the grain."


"But you don't want to spend about $3 a batch of beer on LPG?"....Would cost a bit more the $3/Batch. Couldn't see getting much more than 2-3 brews with a swap N Go.

Yeah, I only made about 150 brews using LPG before moving to elec. What would I know?
Using a 3 ring and bbq reg on a single batch, I used to get a bit over 8 batches from a bottle. The 20jet Mong with 0-207kpa reg didn't use much more, and even with a NASA I was still getting at least 7 batches worth (although I never used the NASAs on a single batch)
Even if you was getting your LPG from the local petrol station it would still only be $5 a batch.

Sorry mate, but you seem to be setting yourself up for failure before you start.

I would get the basics correct before attempting your next brew. Either LPG or throw an element in the pot. If you go the elec element get some decent insulation on the outside of the pot. Even if you wanted to stay indoors with the kitchen setup (which I would not recommend) you could get an over the side immersion element.

 

[RdeVjun]

While Pistol Patch's AHB BIAB booklet was truly a ground-breaking reference work when it was first published, unfortunately it has a few fundamental errors. Other guides have been created that replace it- suggest using the one PeteQ linked above, also try biabrewer.info (PP's BIAB site) or search the interwebz for other BIAB methods. WRT the method outlined in the OP, yes, the guide is wrong in suggesting to add the grain to the water at the beginning, it threw me when I first started too!

Sadly, your trust that heat was uniformly distributed was misplaced! Stirring while heating is essential to distribute the heat throughout the mash. Nb. However, once a particular temperature step has been achieved then just cover it up and leave it be, there's no need for any more stirring, that only leads to heat loss and there are no real performance advantages.

Thermometers: This one QM7314 from Jaycar is cheaper and IMO far better, the two I have both tested brilliantly, that other one you have I tried- it wasn't accurate and it expired due to condensation.

Is is probably academic now, however your 19L pot could have done the 23L batches as initially proposed, try Nick JD's "20L Stovetop" (aka Maxi-BIAB on BIABrewer), however I certainly don't recommend that method for beginners, instead go for the $30 All Grain (aka Mini-BIAB) method as above and scale it up as required.
As per other posts above, there are many variations on the 20L theme, however most revolve around concentrated mash and boil with a final dilution step. One reason I like it is in not worrying about Specific Gravity targets throughout the whole process, the final step allows volume adjustment to precisely the right SG, albeit at the expense of variations in brew length, but that's usually only a litre or two either way.

If you run into heating performance issues with the big pot on the stove then perhaps for the time being consider using the smaller pot instead, once you have a bigger & better heat source then use the big pot.

HTH! :icon_cheers:

 

[Bribie G]

A few suggestions.

For a 22.5L brew full volume BIAB I'd be looking at 33L strike water. This is why you have ended up with a couple of litres extra and a few degrees of OG lower. For the strike water itself if you have a fairly late model HWS, just use the tap water. Nine times out of ten I just do that and it's fine - with the advantage that the chlorine would have mostly been zapped out of the water.

Otherwise just keep using a ten dollar electric kettle or two to assist the ramp to mashout temp. Cheaper than gas.

WTF is a floating thermometer?

Probe is fine with stirring and will give more consistent readings.

Apart from that it seems to have gone fairly well, just the low OG. I just ran the figures through BrewMate and yes, some LDME would be good and as QldKev says add at any stage. Personally what I'd do is just whack in some sugar, it won't affect the flavour too much and will up the gravity to 1049. For your volume you would just need 300g which isn't a lot. LDME could give a bit of a kitty twang that you are trying to get away from.

I'd try again with HWS, 33L, mash at 66* then raise to mashout at 78* (you are going to heat the volume anyway so just leave the grain bag in there but stir constantly and a cake rack or trivet under it will avoid burning). A mashout should give you a couple of extra points of efficiency.

Sounds like you are on the right track. :super:

 

[Damn]

Yeah, I only made about 150 brews using LPG before moving to elec. What would I know?
Using a 3 ring and bbq reg on a single batch, I used to get a bit over 8 batches from a bottle. The 20jet Mong with 0-207kpa reg didn't use much more, and even with a NASA I was still getting at least 7 batches worth (although I never used the NASAs on a single batch)
Even if you was getting your LPG from the local petrol station it would still only be $5 a batch.

Sorry mate, but you seem to be setting yourself up for failure before you start.

I would get the basics correct before attempting your next brew. Either LPG or throw an element in the pot. If you go the elec element get some decent insulation on the outside of the pot. Even if you wanted to stay indoors with the kitchen setup (which I would not recommend) you could get an over the side immersion element.

Sorry for doubting you Kev,

My english/manner can be ordinary at the best of times. As far as "how long does a gas bottle last" I was only going on my experience with my BBQ bottle but not really thinking about it, the jets on my BBQ are considerably longer. I do appreciate your input.

Damian.

 

[Damn]

Is is probably academic now, however your 19L pot could have done the 23L batches as initially proposed, try Nick JD's "20L Stovetop" (aka Maxi-BIAB on BIABrewer), however I certainly don't recommend that method for beginners, instead go for the $30 All Grain (aka Mini-BIAB) method as above and scale it up as required.

Thanks all for the input, my plan originally as per another post to do a concentrated mash but some doubted that method hence I bought the bigger pot. I've got a brew on tomorrow. Think I'll retire the 50L pot for the time being and try Nicks method, looks pretty straight forward. In fact, if it goes well I'll sell that big pot on this site as I don't really want to muck around with electric elements or larger gas burners.

Damn.

 

[QldKev]

No problems mate. Sorry from me too as I can come across pretty harsh in my typing, as I type how I talk. It doesn't sound so bad when I say it as you hear the tone of my voice, but on paper I sometimes read what I have typed and think it sounds a bit to direct. Most people on here get used to it as we don't have fonts to match our body language.

I found LPG about $3 a batch, whilst elec is about $1. I don't think it's worth changing for the cost savings, when you think $2 difference over a couple of cartons worth of beer. Both systems have both pros and cons. I do think getting a decent element or LPG burner will make your day easier, and get the boil off rates happening. With a too soft boil you will start to run into issues such as DMS when trying to do lagers etc. Otherwise as you are going to try, give the stovetop method a go using a small pot. I find it easier to use a large pot with a decent heat source, but that's more a personal opinion.

I think since you are asking these question, you are on the right track to making great beers.

Cheers