Help Support Aussie Homebrewer by donating:

  1. We have implemented the ability to gift someone a Supporting Membership now! When you access the Upgrade page there is now a 'Gift' button. Once you click that you can enter a username to gift an account Upgrade to. Great way to help support this forum plus give some kudos to anyone who has helped you.
    Dismiss Notice

temperature mash - raise water and grains together to mash temp

Discussion in 'All Grain Brewing' started by buckerooni, 3/9/19.

 

  1. buckerooni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    7/2/12
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 3/9/19
    it hadn't occurred to me seriously about a temperature mash until I read this in the brew wiki:

    Temperature Mash
    An alternative to the infusion mash is the temperature mash. Rather than adding a known quantity of hot water, the mixed water and grains are simply raised to the target mashing temperature and held at that temperature until the starch conversion is complete. While this is quite practical for a commercial brewer, temperature mashing presents challenges to home brewers. Most homebrewers use simple pots over a stove or propane burner, and it is difficult to hold a precise mashing temperature for an extended period using just a stove and pot.

    I've got a 1V with recirc - and this would speed up my brew days, any reason why not to add the grains to room temp water and raise up to the desired mash temp?

    thanks.
     
  2. TheSumOfAllBeers

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    18/10/17
    Messages:
    123
    Likes Received:
    38
    Posted 3/9/19
    I would want to be confident in my RIMS kit first, gloopy wort, low density element etc.

    But can’t think of major reason against it.
     
  3. Coalminer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    20/3/08
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    147
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Macquarie N.S.W.
    Posted 3/9/19
    Yep, works well. Have been doing this for years with no ill effects, but you need the right gear for it (I use a Braumeister)
    Mash in at room temp and rise about 1degree per min to the first rest
     
    razz and MHB like this.
  4. goatchop41

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    27/10/14
    Messages:
    652
    Likes Received:
    328
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bendigo (Vic)
    Posted 3/9/19
    Just a note - what you are proposing is certainly not what the wiki is suggesting. The wiki is suggesting raising the mash temperature from one step temp to another (eg. for a Hochkurz mash), not from room temp to mash temp.
    Doughing in at room temp will give you a very gloopy mash, so you'd want to be sure that you're not going to scorch over the element. Depending on how rapidly or slowly you raise the temperature from room temp, you'll also get certain types of activity that you may not be after, eg. acid or protein rests.
     
  5. buckerooni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    7/2/12
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 4/9/19
    interesting points . my system has a grain basket with recirc into the basket was well as recircing wort around the 2 ULD elements. gloppy mash sounds like a precursor to a stick mash, I have rice hills that i could add to mitigate this. also yeah, the ultimate impact to flavour by the temp range. I can heat at 1c per minute or even faster. guess I'll give it a try and see?
     
  6. MontPel

    Active Member

    Joined:
    31/7/17
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    10
    Posted 5/9/19
    You are likely to scorch the wort from unconverted starches at low temperatures, depending on your set-up. Pump speed (flow rate) and energy density of the heating element will play a large role.
     
  7. Coalminer

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    20/3/08
    Messages:
    406
    Likes Received:
    147
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Macquarie N.S.W.
    Posted 5/9/19
    Never used rice hulls, never had a stuck mash, never had a scorched element, over 180 brews, don't even know what a "gloopy" mash is
    To each his own I suppose.
     
  8. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,440
    Likes Received:
    2,879
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 5/9/19
    There are lots of good reasons for mashing in cold, it was even common practice back in the old pre stainless steel and computer control (probably pre-electric) days. You actually get a better yield and better utilisation of all your enzymes.
    Pre-hydrating (mashing in cold the night before) allows all the enzymes to go into solution (optimum temperature is about 48oC) allows the malt to fully hydrate, allows some otherwise reluctant starch granules to swell and burst making more starch available to enzyme attack...
    Down side is its slower, in these days of 10 or more mashes a day in a big brewery it simply isn't possible, it also takes more energy (costs more). For a home brewer its a very valid option.

    This is a rule of thumb, but its a good one!
    If you are heating faster than about 1oC/Minute you are killing enzymes.
    It takes time for heat to cross materials, to heat the liquid and for the heated liquid to either move/be moved so more liquid can take up heat. if the energy is going in too fast the surfaces will be hot enough to denature enzymes at a minimum, to cause scorching and fowling of the heating surface at even higher rates.
    There is also another mash regime that might surprise people.
    If you mash in at ambient then heat to 80oC at 0.5oC/M (i.e. from 20-80oC over 120minutes) you will go through all the enzymes optimum ranges slowly enough for each of them to do all they are going to do. Think about it in design terms, just match the element power to the batch size, use a temperature (80oC) cut out switch, fill up, plug in turn on and come back in 2 hours. Stirring the mash or recirculating the liquor would improve consistency, but I have done this a couple of times on an electric stove top, set on low and just let it sit there for a couple of hours to pre-digest when working with a lot of adjunct.

    Coalminer has the advantage of working on a Rolls-Royce system. when you are talking about Ultra low density elements, in a BM you can fill the unit with water turn it on, you can reach in and hold the elements in your fingers until the water is too hot to put your hand into (not recommended) without burning your fingers. That's real ultra low density elements and part of why a BM is more expensive - but you do get what you pay for.

    When I home brewed on a BM, I took to mashing in with tap water (Cl removed) heating to 20oC if needed, doing all my water chemistry then just running up to first rest, consistently got over 80% efficiency in the fermenter. Worth noting that a BM will heat at pretty close to 1oC/minute.
    Mark
     
    razz, buckerooni and Coalminer like this.
  9. Half-baked

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    8/10/17
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    36
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 5/9/19
    That’s really interesting (as usual) Mark.

    Do you you happen to know what sort of wort fermentability you’d have from doing this? E.g would it resemble a 65oC mash, a 70oC one, or something in between?
     
  10. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,440
    Likes Received:
    2,879
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 5/9/19
    Probably more fermentable, some of the 30+ enzymes involved and the fact that you go right through the B-Amylase range before denaturing it will give a very fermentable carbohydrate fraction. Longer protease activity will result in more protein (all be it well reduced) will add body and head potential
    If all goes according to plan, more fermentable but more of extract to.
    Mark
     
    Half-baked likes this.
  11. buckerooni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    7/2/12
    Messages:
    482
    Likes Received:
    125
    Gender:
    Male
    Posted 5/9/19
    Thanks MHB, very interesting. I've got a brauduino with 2 x camco 4500w ULD elements. I can reduce the power output of these, have the recirc directly around the elements and set the hold temp no worries. sounds like I can defo give this a shot.
     
  12. MHB

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    30/9/05
    Messages:
    5,440
    Likes Received:
    2,879
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Posted 5/9/19
    Good, let us know how it works. I've only used the process as a digestion step for adjunct, it worked well for that.
    I think it was called "Kettle Mashing" but the name has been appropriated to describe some more modern approaches.
    Some friends who are mad keen reenactors did a version in a wooden barrel with hot rocks but that's getting a bit too in touch with history for me.
    Mark
     
  13. Mash_Hound

    Member

    Joined:
    25/6/19
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    5
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Batemans Bay
    Posted 5/9/19
    Mash in at 30c , no dough balls ! Body of the Beer will reflect rest temp
     

Share This Page