Thoughts On The Use Of Feed-lot Grade Grains In Brewing

[Adamt]

Yes, brewers.... not maltsters.

 

[manticle]

And some more experience with malting of base grains to brew with.

You people call yourself brewers?!

That's like criticising a chef for not killing a cow.

 

[Darren]

Great to see infinitee looking out of the "square"

Yes, brewers.... not maltsters.

I suggest that the majority are just fermentation assistants who are generally happy with the status quo of she'il be right mate, I know all that stuff give me a can/bag of malt and some dried yeast and I will call myself a brewer.

There is of course a bigger picture here. As stated before many, many farmers have their barley rejected for malting purely because they do not know the buyer well enough, suggestive that there is alot of malting grade barley going to feed-lot.

To make things worse, a hell of alot of MALTED barley also goes to feed-lot due to over-production and also FRESHNESS.

Considering that all the imported malts in Australia have sailed at sea for at least three months, one needs to consider just how fresh the product is and also if the same but fresher product can be produced simply and more cheaply right there at home?

food for thought

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

That's like criticising a chef for not killing a cow.

No, thats like criticising a chef for not knowing what a cow is or which cut of meats come from where (unless of course they were vegetarian chefs)

cheers

Darren

 

[manticle]

I beg to differ. Everyone knows that grain needs to be malted, which grains that are often malted/can be malted, what malting is, etc etc. They just may not have done it themselves.

Brewers brew, malsters malt. Sometimes, one may do the other.

Nothing wrong, in my book, with someone having a go at something different. Expect a variety of opinions when posting on the internet though.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Just a quick thought, How does crop date equate to malting date ? I have spec sheets that only mention crop date not malting date ? So it looks like you can keep barley for some years then malt it and it becomes the fresh maltings. Got me confused but I remember on a Cascade tour where they mentioned they could keep enough barley for three years production ? Not sure if it was malted or raw.
GB

 

[jimi]

Great to see infinitee looking out of the "square"




I suggest that the majority are just fermentation assistants who are generally happy with the status quo of she'il be right mate, I know all that stuff give me a can/bag of malt and some dried yeast and I will call myself a brewer.

There is of course a bigger picture here. As stated before many, many farmers have their barley rejected for malting purely because they do not know the buyer well enough, suggestive that there is alot of malting grade barley going to feed-lot.

To make things worse, a hell of alot of MALTED barley also goes to feed-lot due to over-production and also FRESHNESS.

Considering that all the imported malts in Australia have sailed at sea for at least three months, one needs to consider just how fresh the product is and also if the same but fresher product can be produced simply and more cheaply right there at home?

food for thought

cheers

Darren

"Farmers having their barley rejected because they don't know the buyer" - what a load of ...! The whole system could not be anymore 'faceless'. Heck most farmers I know don't even drop off their grain at the bridge the trucky does all that. AWB, VICGrain and the other independents I've worked for have orders to fill as quick as possible and who ever has grain at the specs required will be taken. Some orders don't even get filled, so they'd be losing money not taking grain that meets the specs.
Infinitee - you've asked for opinions on your idea and you've had them. I don't think there's been any slinging. No point asking a question if your only going to be happy the one response you've already preconcieved.

 

[Brewman_]

Please, correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe many farmers sell only a portion of their immediate crop - depending on price and demand, and store grain in large silo's > 1000 ton per silo in banks of many silo's. The Silo's provide time to buffer demand / prices and maximise sale price and other economic considerations. So even local grain may not be provided to market immediately.

Fear_n_Loath

 

[Infinitee]

I am not at all displeased with the variety of response here.

Some folk gave information that changed my mind immediately about the quality of grain required for a Decent malt.

But others just confirmed their ignorance about the base of the subject - I just find it unfortunate that such few posts devolve the subject of choice....

The fact that many folk have asserted there is a high-standard of grain to be accepted for malting makes me want to grow my own quality grains for brewing purposes (already got rye and oats growing strong) ...
And I'm not entirely convinced that it's only the best of the most quality of grains that get made into the finest of malts and malt-extracts that people pay such top dollar for.

That is what I'm wondering about mostly: Value for dollar.

Rather than purchasing the 'recommended' and pronouncing it the Holy Shiznits From Colossal Cloud Nine.
As some seem so prone and ready to do.

I want to produce the finest and freshest of beverages possible.
And I also want to be able to do it from the home/farm, without relying on corporate suppliers.

Is that ok?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Fair comments, but be prepared to study a lot of malting science, not easy.I have studied brewing science and there is no way I would tackle malting my own grain. Good luck and hope you get a good result.
GB

 

[kook]

This is what you want:

http://www.joewhitemaltings.com.au/micromalting.html


Not sure it aligns well with your "cheap" goal though. They cost more than most new family cars.

 

[scoundrel]

actually this is something ive wanted to lookinto (the whole malting thing) a few people on forum have done some experimenting with malting, there was some gluten free stuff floating around a while back, and there was someone else i think it was millet man who'd malted his own millet (essentially budgie seed) and made a gluten free beer with that.

and anyway most feed lot grain still have enough nutrients to actually germinate and grow given the right conditions. no harm in trying boys eh?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

That is what I'm wondering about mostly: Value for dollar.

I want to produce the finest and freshest of beverages possible.
And I also want to be able to do it from the home/farm, without relying on corporate suppliers.

Is that ok?

Yep, its OK - but those are the two points that will probably trip you up in this exercise. Worthy enough goals, but harder to do than you might think.

"I want to produce the finest and freshest of beverages possible. And I also want to be able to do it from the home/farm, without relying on corporate suppliers."

Gryphon is right - malting is a hell of a science. Oh its easy enough to malt grain. Under a wet sack for a few days, dried out in the sun. Thats malt.

But.. if your goal is high quality malt.... then it gets complicated. Its hard to make high quality malt from good barley - its bloody hard to make from marginal barley. It impossible to make from low quality barley. And god barley isnt easy to grow - you mentioned in an earlier post about home compost?? Well, if you used that, you would end up with barley that wasn't suitable for high quality malt... there is a lot of study to be done in any of the fields of Barley cropping, Malting; and Brewing.. you are taking on all three.

Not saying you cant - its an achievable goal if you are committed enough - but its a bloody big ask. I'm the same as Gryphon - a few years of studying brewing science under my belt and I wouldn't know enough to even imagine I could consistently make good malt, let alone better than I could buy. I could make malt alright... but it would be hit and miss.

"That is what I'm wondering about mostly: Value for dollar"

This is the least convincing argument really. By the time you build a system that is capable of making consistent, high quality malt - you would have spent enough money to buy malt for a year or three. And if you count time as money - you could pay for all your grain and a nice holiday overseas every year if you spent as much time mowing your neighbors lawns as a part time job, as you are going to have to spend to get enough malt for your brewing.

So thats what you are in for if you decide to do this - a lot of time and effort and money - and you will still struggle to get a result as good as a sack of malt from the HB shop.

But - If thats what floats your boat - good on you, I wish you luck and hope it all turns out great.

Thirsty

 

[pdilley]

Infinitee,

You are better off asking advice and what thoughts on grains are from somebody who has actually done it as you say rather than people who have not tried it.

You should try and contact this guy or find out what/how he became inspired to:
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=35419

As someone with hands on actual experience he will set better in your mind as a trustworthy source of opinions on the process.


Cheers,
Brewer Pete

 

[Kleiny]

but if you were gonna brew with a large amount of feed grain a decoction mash may be a good idea? This type of mashing was originally came up with to handle less than ideal grain or so im led to believe? It would certainly be an interesting experiment.

Decoction mashing is used for under modified malt which is usually a product from the malting process. so if you where to malt your own barley then you would aim to modify the kernel well. As suggested above, if you want to give it a go well get reading on malting and have a crack, it has been successfully completed by people on this forum before.

There is of course a bigger picture here. As stated before many, many farmers have their barley rejected for malting purely because they do not know the buyer well enough, suggestive that there is alot of malting grade barley going to feed-lot.

To make things worse, a hell of alot of MALTED barley also goes to feed-lot due to over-production and also FRESHNESS.

cheers

Darren

You could not be further from the truth Darren, Barley is harvested and taken to a drop off silo generally in the same district as grown. At this silo station it under go tests for grain consistency, nitrogen/protein, screenings for size of kernel. This then decides wether it is malting quality or feed and it is put into the correct section for storage and transport. This job is done by locals and all tests are recorded. I have never driven a load of our barley to the silo and seen it go malting grade (because you are in the test room) then be told that we dont know you so put it in the feed bin. LOAD OF SHIT.

If you need anymore clarification pls PM me and i will offer for you to come and sit on the header, truck it to the silo, see the testing and transfer it to the bin.

Just a quick thought, How does crop date equate to malting date ? I have spec sheets that only mention crop date not malting date ? So it looks like you can keep barley for some years then malt it and it becomes the fresh maltings.

Please, correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe many farmers sell only a portion of their immediate crop - depending on price and demand, and store grain in large silo's > 1000 ton per silo in banks of many silo's. The Silo's provide time to buffer demand / prices and maximise sale price and other economic considerations. So even local grain may not be provided to market immediately.

Depends on how it is stored obviously, farmers tend to keep enough barley for seed generally unless they have huge silo's to store grain for a better price. The problem with storing for a better price is that the local silo will have closed for the season and the farmer will have to wear the transport cost in bulk to a larger depot (usually in a major city with a dock). This transport can be a long way and at great cost.

Barley can be stored in different states' e.g. if its dormant it has to be stored until it is viable again without chemical addition. If stored right viability is not an issue and barley could be up to 3 years old by the time its transported from the farm to bulk silo and then bought by a maltster, stored on the malting premises, tested and then malted. Bagged up and sold off to the brewer.

Obviously if it is stored in poor conditions it will deteriorate quickly lose viability and possibly sprout. Nonbody other than stock farmers are going to but this. Because it is good for feed but not much else.





Sorry for some ranting and some info for a couple of the questions. I can be wrong but i do have knowledge on growing harvesting and transporting barley as it has happened on the family farm for 4 generations.

Kleiny

 

[brettprevans]

i will offer for you to come and sit on the header, truck it to the silo, see the testing and transfer it to the bin.
Kleiny

ROADTRIP!!!!!

 

[MarkBastard]

But others just confirmed their ignorance about the base of the subject

You did in your opening post. You told us how wonderfully cheap you can get this unmalted grain, and how you can get it cracked if you want. So if you were going to malt it yourself how would having it cracked help you? I think since making this thread you have done more research to help with the arguing and make yourself look like you knew what you were talking about all along.

My 2 cents.

 

[brettprevans]

+1 Mark

I want to produce the finest and freshest of beverages possible.
And I also want to be able to do it from the home/farm, without relying on corporate suppliers.

I refer you to the very first response (which happens to be mine). I think it answers all your questions

feed grain hasnt been malted. hence unless your going to malt it yourself, its unsuitable.
thats why we dont use it

edit: the maltsters job is to malt grain so we get the variations of grain and hence so many grain types (base, crystal, specialty etc). this also modifies the grain so its easier to brew with. I doubt they go to the expense of doing this, just to feed it to animals.

also there are grades of grain. malting companies only take specific grades of grain.

to summerize
1. we dont use feedgrain for a variety of reasons. quality etc. but mainly becuase it hasnt been malted
2. 99% of AHbers dont malt our own grain or have the technical expertese/knowledge to do so.

Is that ok?

If perfectly fine and a great goal to work towards if you want to do that. just be aware of some of the issues raised here.

ignore the rest of the discussion if you like, but i think the answer has been covered in the first few posts. Including by Kleiny who is well on the way to becoming a qualified maltster.

 

[Luka]

A quick glance at ABB Grains website reveals that there are two distinct varities that they have one for feed and one for malting barley. Commander, the malting variety is descrived as having low levels of protein which make it more suited to malting. The feed variety doesn't mention its protein levels so I can only assume that it is higher. This to me suggests that feed lot barley is not best suited to malting. Could you malt it? Absolutely, but the results probably aren't worth the effort.

Personally, I can understand the curiosity of malting your own grain but realise that I have neither the ability, knowledge or patience to learn to do it. I'd rather trust in the experts.

 

[fergi]

This thread is 3 pages of people discussing your question.

exactly as BUM has just said, 3 pages of it, so you are not happy if we dont agree with what you have to say infinitee, well get over it because thats what this forum is all about , we dont all agree on lots of topics but in the end we get a little bit of info sometimes even when we dont agree with each other.if you think that malting your own cow food is a good way to go ,well go for it and prove us wrong, maybe you can come up with an award winning beer.
fergi