The "no Chiller" Method

[user 384]

OK this isn't a thread about bumping off one of AHB's members and the man behind the Mash Paddle compeition, it's about extract and AG brewing and not using an immersion chiller or counter flow chiller post boil.

This method has been raised by a number of people recently and they have reported good results. I'm guessing that a large number of people have used a variation of this approach in their early days of brewing. When I first started AG, It was in a 20 litre pot on top of the stove and I didn't have a chiller, so I just put the lid on the pot and left in the laundry sink over night. This is basically the same approach as the no chiller method and I did this for over a year with no noticeable ill effects. More recently I made a Pilsner and the pick-up tube from the boiler got clogged and I could run the wort through my CFC, so I just siphoned into a sanitised jerry can. the jerry can then went into the fridge to bring it down to pitching temp. Again the beer worked out fine.

Maybe we can start identifying some of the pros and cons of this approach. I think it would also be helpful if Kai gave a full explanation of paturisation and what at the critical points to consider like fill temp etc.

From my own experience, 25-30 litres of hot wort in a jerry can is not that easy to chill in a fridge, particularly if you are trying to get it down to lager pitching temps. From my one experience of this, it took around 48 hours in the fridge. This had no percetable effect on the final product, it just took a long time.

I'm sure others will identify some health and safety issues around handling large quantities of near boiling wort.

So lets have a crack at properly understanding the ups and downs of chiller versus no chiller.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Guest Lurker]

Nothing practical to contribute but I'm interested in this. One aspect I am looking at is to reduce the lag time for ferments. This technique eliminates the potential exposure to nasties during the chilling process, and allows you to have a starter at peak activity and choose the exact best moment before opening the container and exposing it.

Does anyone fill the jerry with CO2 to avoid oxygen pickup in the hot transfer?
Has anyone detected a plasticy taste from putting hot wort ina jerrycan?

 

[warrenlw63]

Or any undue stress on their refrigerators due to such a large, hot radiating mass sitting inside it? :unsure:

$50 coil of copper won't break the bank.

Warren -

 

[Jazzafish]

At the moment I use an immersion chiller. I pump tap water through it and collect the returning hot water to clean at the end of the brew day. So I guess it saves water? The disadvantage is that this method can only lower the worts temperature down to the mid 20's in summer. So I go into a second stage where I pump ice cold water through the chiller. Just have a pond pump in a bucket filled with water and frozen water bottles. It does the trick and I can pitch yeast within an hour of the end of boil.

Before the chiller, I used an ice bath like mentioned in the palmer book. I simply put the hot pot filled with wort into the laundry sink and filled with ice water. When the water warmed up I'd replace it. Took a long time. Wasted alot of water.

Have used a fridge to cool it too... took even longer!

None of these methods produced a foul beer. But I want my beer to be ready as fast as possible, do I'm all for chillers.

 

[Guest Lurker]

Or any undue stress on their refrigerators due to such a large, hot radiating mass sitting inside it? :unsure:

$50 coil of copper won't break the bank.

Warren -

[post="114795"][/post]​

I wasnt planning to put it in the fridge. Just leave it standing in the back yard next to the unwashed brewing gear for a few days.

$50 worth of copper wont beak the bank. A fruit fly popping in and adding a lactic culture while using it might break the beer though.

 

[Jazzafish]

Or any undue stress on their refrigerators due to such a large, hot radiating mass sitting inside it?

The fridge did work hard for some time to chill the wort in my experience.

$50 coil of copper won't break the bank.

Totally agree

 

[Borret]

I have no experience with this method but in considering it I have a few concerns.
The first is post boil HSA during the transfer of liquids. I now it's minimal but still there. GL's CO2 blanket would help this though.
The other question I raise comes only from Wild Brews which I am reading at present. It is with regards the slow chilling in coolships so I am unsure if the surface area has any bearing on it. I don't don't think so.
"This method of long slow cooling also will lead to the formation of significant amounts of dimethyl sulphate, which will be scrubbed during the lengthy fermentation process."
Now as we are not talking about fermenting our beers for three years with things that will eat everything put in their way, I imagine this is worth considering. Can anyone comment here?
Other than that the idea of cleaning and sanitising yet another container is a drawback too.
A positive I surpose is being able to take off a litre or so of the wort in a small vessel and rapid chill it and use it for the yeast starter while the rest of the brew cools over a day or so. It would mean the whole brew would have a constant profile rather than DME wort or one from a previous brew being use for the starter

The method does have appeal though, but as with anything new(ish) I am wary..

Brent

 

[warrenlw63]

A fruit fly popping in and adding a lactic culture while using it might break the beer though.

[post="114797"][/post]​

Brewers by nature are an inventive lot... Not really hard to fashion a lid that fits the boiler when chilling.

Warren -

 

[Uncle Fester]

Just guessing, but I would assume that 15 minutes after flameout, the wort would still be in the high 80's for temperature. I doubt many bad beasties can survive at that temp. Once placed into a Jerry, I would suspect that the headspace would quickly rise to the same temperature, fairly effectively sanitising it. (I'm not suggesting that the Jerry not be sanitised seperately, just that anything that was introduced within the headspace would be killed)

The cooling wort would create a very effective vacuum seal, and I would not see any problem if the wort was left for a reasonable amount of time.

After all, what is the shelf life of an ESB fresh wort? (not for freshness, but the effective use-by date)

If it appears that the result doesnt seem to be affected by the cold break, then it would seem to be a reasonably risk free process?


M

 

[user 384]

A positive I surpose is being able to take off a litre or so of the wort in a small vessel and rapid chill it and use it for the yeast starter while the rest of the brew cools over a day or so. It would mean the whole brew would have a constant profile rather than DME wort or one from a previous brew being use for the starter

[post="114799"][/post]​

Hi Borret

Some brewers, including myself, already use a variation of this method. My current practice is to chill the beer using a CFC, but often this only gets the wort down to mid to low 20's, not really cold enough for ales and definitely not cold enough for lagers. So I place the fermentor in the fridge overnight, usually for about 12 hours. I will already have a starter, but I pour off the liquid (made with cheap Bi-Lo lager goo) and add 1 to 1.5 litres of the wort to the yeast left behind in the bottom. At mid to low 20's this really fires up over the 12 hours wait for the rest of the wort to cool in the fridge. Next morning I pitch the yeast and in no time at all the whole batch is happily fermenting away. I've found that this works very well with lagers (I increase the volume to 2 to 2.5 litres).

Cheers
MAH

 

[warrenlw63]

Some brewers, including myself, already use a variation of this method. My current practice is to chill the beer using a CFC, but often this only gets the wort down to mid to low 20's

[post="114804"][/post]​

LOL! :lol: Left yourself open there MAH. Could be in danger of being hijacked into a CFC vs. Immersion chiller thread now. :blink:

Note: Pond pump and ice slurry can get worts to pitching temps (and lower) within 30 minutes of shutting off the mains water.

Warren -

 

[RobW]

When I was doing partials and small AGs & before I had a chiller I would put the boiler in a sinkfull of cold water & change the water once or twice before putting it in the fridge to cool completely. The cold water brought the temp down to moderate levels fairly quickly and took most of the load off the fridge. It was usually close to pitching temp after about 6 hrs (10-15 litres). Not much cold break but that didn't seem to have any adverse effect on the beer.

 

[Weizguy]

I believe that the Fresh Wort jerry-can packs (ESB and Potters brewery) are filled at above 80C and then sealed. Fill high and leave little headspace for oxygen/ oxidation.

I had an ESB Belgian Ale sitting in my dining room (and other places around my home) for about 12 months before I pitched yeast for the brew. Was still a very clean and interesting beer. Just a little sweet, with the raspberry flavour. Should've used the lambic yeast blend instead of the Wyeast Belgian II.

So, the summary is: no plastic flavour, no apparent oxidation, even with long storage.

Seth out

 

[AndrewQLD]

Last sunday I brewed my house ale after a big saturday night on the turps. Unfortunately by the time it came to chilling the wort I was VERY green so decided to try the method you are talking about.
I racked the boiling hot wort to a Plastic jerry can being careful not to splash, sealed the container so it was air tight and left it overnight on the garage floor. By the next morning the wort was blood temp so I threw the jerry can in the fridge and left till that night to transfer, aerate and pitch a 1.5 lt starter.
The things I noticed about this method are.
1: The wort was crystal clear when I racked it to the fermenter.
2: There was about 1.5 lt of cold break in the bottom of the jerry can when I finished the transfer to fermenter, and this is more than I usually get with my immersion chiller.
3: fermentation startup was a little slower due to the wort being at 17c instead of the 22c it usually is.

The beer is chugging along nicely now and if anyone is interested I would be happy to post my thoughts after a taste test when fermentation is finished. I brew this beer at least once a month so I am confident I will be able to taste any differences.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[warrenlw63]

If anybody were to contemplate "hot-packing" wort. A couple of Corny kegs would do the job nicely too. At least then you're transferring hot wort to stainless vessels. You could then apply blanket-pressure CO2 to the wort and store in the fridge (or wherever) until you're ready to transfer to the fermenter and pitch your yeast. Also allows for a closed transfer to the fermenter. h34r:

Worth a thought.

Warren -

 

[Pumpy]

This is one of the most interesting posts I have read for a long time.

effectively if ESB can do it whay cant we thats what it boils down to excuse the pun .

It gives brewers a flexibility by storing their wort until they wish to ferment just think you could brew two batches over a couple of weekends and then ferment a double batch in the fermenting fridge and save more time .

Pumpy

 

[Thommo]

Someone may correct me on this, but I don't think the cubes we racked into at Braidwood were sterilised.

Could be wrong, but I don't remember it happening.

 

[Pumpy]

The cubes at the Braidwood Project were straight from the factory 'not 'sterilised and some guys added there yeast a week later

Pumpy

 

[Duff]

If anybody were to contemplate "hot-packing" wort. A couple of Corny kegs would do the job nicely too. At least then you're transferring hot wort to stainless vessels. You could then apply blanket-pressure CO2 to the wort and store in the fridge (or wherever) until you're ready to transfer to the fermenter and pitch your yeast. Also allows for a closed transfer to the fermenter. h34r:

Worth a thought.

Warren -

[post="114812"][/post]​

That's what I was thinking as well Warren. Seems the safest way if one was paranoid about getting oxygen in their beer during transfer. Hit it with a bit of CO2 after transfer.

But I would imagine that if racking off at a high temperature into a sealed cube, there should be very little risk of something affecting the beer. You would have to squeeze in the sides so the beer was near the top of the rim before screwing the lid on.

Will try tomorrow.

Cheers.

 

[Pumpy]

Duff,this is just a thought if you use your stainless steel kegs when the wort cools will it suck in the sides of the keg ??

pumpy