The Boil

[hando]

Hi Guys/Girls,

I am new to this forum and fairly new to brewing. I have done about 20 brews now using kits all the way. I feel I am ready to start making things more difficult for myself now (and better brews). I have been reading all sorts of literature and I have heard that when you use a kit you should boil it. I tried it once and found that the hops came out of the extract with the hot break. The brew turned out to be the worst one I have done and there were a few other disasters along the way which prevents me from pinning it on one particular thing. Could someone please advise me on this method a bit? I would appreciate it heaps. I have a few questions also:

Do I forget about the extract hops leaving with the break and just add my own hops at the end of the brew? Will this method make a big difference on the quality of my final results?

And finally, why does this improve the beer (if it does)?

 

[Uncle Fester]

Hi Guys/Girls,

I am new to this forum and fairly new to brewing. I have done about 20 brews now using kits all the way. I feel I am ready to start making things more difficult for myself now (and better brews). I have been reading all sorts of literature and I have heard that when you use a kit you should boil it. I tried it once and found that the hops came out of the extract with the hot break. The brew turned out to be the worst one I have done and there were a few other disasters along the way which prevents me from pinning it on one particular thing. Could someone please advise me on this method a bit? I would appreciate it heaps. I have a few questions also:

Do I forget about the extract hops leaving with the break and just add my own hops at the end of the brew? Will this method make a big difference on the quality of my final results?

And finally, why does this improve the beer (if it does)?

[post="118735"][/post]​

Hando,

I have never boiled the kit, only the extract that I am going to add to the kit as fermentables. I add whatever boiling hops I want to this, and then dry hop once all has been combined in the fermenter. From what I have gleaned from this site, the general consensus is that the kit itself is not boiled. However, there will always be the exception to the rule........ :chug:

M

 

[Jazzafish]

I had boiled my last kit, and added my own hops. I found it got rid of that "kit/tin" flavour. However I quickly moved to AG brewing.

If your boiled batch was bad then it is possible it got some hot side aeration? Most kits use hop extract I believe, so it would mainly alter the bitterness in the boil?

I'd say try a partial mash using malt extract and hops instead of the normal tin (which is basically a syrup from a fresh wort)? Maybe steep some grains too?

Read this chapter, it will be worth it: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/index.html

An example recipe, modified from the same site:

Pale Ale

18L batch

3Kg Pale Malt Extract
1Kg Amber Malt Extract
100g Crystal steeped as mentioned here http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-3.html

Hops:
12g Pride of Ringwood for 60mins
12g Goldings for 20mins
12g Goldings for 5 mins

Brew in this method: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter1-1.html

hope it isn't too over the top, it will shit on the basic kit and kilos.

If you can't boil a full batch, boil what you can and add water later like you do for the kits.

Cheers,
Jarrad

 

[Trough Lolly]

G'day Hando and welcome to the forum!!

[snip]
I have heard that when you use a kit you should boil it. I tried it once and found that the hops came out of the extract with the hot break. The brew turned out to be the worst one I have done...

[post="118735"][/post]​

I believe that boiling kits is a waste of time and money - hopped extract kits, as opposed to containers of malt extract, are basically beer cordial - you can toss them in the fermenter, add water, stir, pitch yeast and ferment. And you'll end up with some pretty ordinary thin flavourless beer that often stops first time brewers from progressing any further in this obsession!

The beer can be improved by adding more fermentables (including bags of brew booster, body brew, etc that has a combo of malt extract and dextrose in a powder form). You can also compensate that by adding more hops in either teabag form or pellets, plugs, whole flowers or resin. There's a balance between malt sweetness and hop bitterness. If you boil the kit and reduce the hop flavours you undermine the balance and that probably had something to do with that "worst brew" you mentioned...

But I digress - the kit concentrate has malt extract that has been boiled and infused with hop oils for bittering, flavour and aroma. Since it's already boiled, you don't need to redo the boil, unless you want to knock out the flavour and aroma profile of the hops already present in the kit. This is why I always suggest adding the kit to the boil at flameout and gently stirring in to mix without removing any of the hop characteristics of the kit. If you want to use malt extract that isnt pre-hopped then buy some dry or liquid malt extract and hop it yourself - or better still, steep some grains or better still, do a mash!

The drawback of using a kit is that you have no say or control over the hops in the kit or the malt used for that matter...but to begin with, kits are relatively easy to make beer with.

[snip]
Do I forget about the extract hops leaving with the break and just add my own hops at the end of the brew?

[post="118735"][/post]​

Why pay good money for a kit, to try to turn it into malt extract and then pay more money to rehop the result?! Lets assume that you use other fermentables such as a kilo of DME or LME, in addition to the kit - you can boil those other fermentables and hop that - add the kit at flameout, stir through, chill and pitch into fermenter. Just make sure that the boil has malt or wheat extract in it so you can "key" the hops into the boil - many moons ago, I did an experiment by boiling hops in a few litres of water with nothing other than dextrose in it - it was horrid - you need some malt in the boil to properly infuse the hop oils and essences into the beer.

[snip]
Will this method make a big difference on the quality of my final results?
And finally, why does this improve the beer (if it does)?

[post="118735"][/post]​

Yes, you will notice a substantial improvement in your final product - kits on their own are not much use (IMHO) - even if you toss a kilo of extract into the fermenter without boiling. I find that a 20 minute boil on the stovetop with a kilo of malt extract and 20g of hops, followed by gently mixing the can of kit concentrate through the hot wort at flameout will give you a far better beer and you regain some control over the colour, flavour and aroma of the beer.

This will set you down the slippery slide though, as you will get even better results if you substitute away the malt extract by steeped grains, and eventually gain total control over the beer profile by mashing your own grains for the entire brew!

And we haven't even touched on yeast yet!! But that's another topic....
Hope this helps, sorry it's a long winded rant (again!!)

Cheers,
TL

 

[dairymaid]

OK! As a new brewer I am reading this all and trying to understand it .
BUT, what is flameout????

 

[dreamboat]

The end of the boil, when you turn the flame out.



dreamboat

 

[poppa joe]

Keep on ranting T.L. you are helping more than Dairymaid
Cheers
PJ

 

[Jazzafish]

hopped extract kits, as opposed to containers of malt extract, are basically beer cordial - you can toss them in the fermenter, add water, stir, pitch yeast and ferment. And you'll end up with some pretty ordinary thin flavourless beer that often stops first time brewers from progressing any further in this obsession!

Very well put... spot on

 

[peas_and_corn]

Hmm...

I think I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I boil the contents of the kits, and I have gotten some very nice brews out of it. jazza- when you said it got rid of the 'can' flavour, that described the reason why I do so. I have found (in my experience anyway) that it doesn't take away hop bitterness; it may take away some hop aroma that was originally intended in the can, but I'm not a fan of the hop aroma gianed from cans- only the bitterness that comes from them. That's what I use my aroma hops for.

 

[DJR]

One thing to remember is to boil whatever it is you have in an adequate volume - kits will caramelize to buggery and hops wont dissolve fully into a small amount of water. Your boil for a kit+hops addition should be at least 8L i'd say, preferably more.

 

[Trough Lolly]

Hmm...

I think I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I boil the contents of the kits, and I have gotten some very nice brews out of it. jazza- when you said it got rid of the 'can' flavour, that described the reason why I do so. I have found (in my experience anyway) that it doesn't take away hop bitterness; it may take away some hop aroma that was originally intended in the can, but I'm not a fan of the hop aroma gianed from cans- only the bitterness that comes from them. That's what I use my aroma hops for.

[post="119019"][/post]​

Feel free to buck away good sir!! That's the beauty of this open minded forum...
You certainly can boil kits and still make good beer - but you need to understand the contents of the kit before you can exercise any reasonable control over the outcome. Boiling kits won't necessarily make a bad beer - but you need to consider the consequences of doing it. Hops are volatile and their aroma and flavouring compounds will happily leave solution when heat is applied - bittering is a different thing.
I totally agree with your comments - yes, the bittering tends to stay keyed in with the malt and the aroma and flavouring elements of the kits do leave something to be desired. If you boil the kit and then add your own preferred flavouring and aroma hops, you will most certainly change the kit (in a very nice way) and that probably has a lot to do with removing the "can" flavour that you and jazza refer to. It's even possible that the malt profile will slightly vary over an extended boil, due to Malliard reactions in the boil - but that's a bit off topic for now!!
Many part mash brewers do exactly what you propose - they use a brew kit as a significant malt contribution as well as a couple of kilos of base malt and a half kilo or so of specialty malts in a mini mash - they then boil the lot, factor in about 17IBU's of bitterness from the kit and then top up the bitterness, flavour and aroma levels with their own selection of hops. I've tasted some great beers from this method of brewing.

Cheers,
TL