That ' Home Brew' Taste.

[Jase71]

My first crack at kegging was with Kilkenny which I succeded in freezing solid,

I think you took the advice of 'keep the temperature low' to extremes there, mate

 

[Supra-Jim]

Mmmmm... Sierra Nevada :icon_drool2: What was the recipe for that one?

 

[cdbrown]

.... and the kilkenny recipe mate.

 

[buttersd70]

cd

Never tried this, so cant vouch for how close it is, but this is the Kilkenny copy off the old grumpys site....

View attachment 23023

 

[Dave70]

Mmmmm... Sierra Nevada :icon_drool2: What was the recipe for that one?

One for you.

1 x X-TRACT Pale Ale

150g Munich Grain

2 x 12g Cascade Finishing Hop (Dry Method)

​

 

[Dave70]

.... and the kilkenny recipe mate.

And one for you.

1 x X-TRACT Bitter

500g Maltodextrin

150g Crystal Grain

1 x 12g Fuggles Finishing Hop (Dry Method)

*Make up to 18 litres




​

 

[The Big Burper]

//beginning of rant <_<
IMHO (dons flameproof suit) another source of 'twang' is excessive use of light dried malt extract. Lets face it, LDME wasn't invented for the benefit of us home brewers. Whilst nowadays of course, a fair amount is used by us, the majority goes into things like Milo bars, Sustagen gold, Maltesers, Sarah Lee cakes, Mars Bars etc etc.


Recently I made two brews a few weeks apart, both of them with a coopers lager tin, same hops, same yeast (Notto). In the first one I used heaps of LDME, in the second one I did a partial mash with just an English (Bairds) pale malt and added dreaded cane sugar instead of the LDME and it turned out a really nice beer with no 'cidery' twang, which I had feared.

I can attest for the Bairds brew, as BG came round to my place last Wed and we had a few ales. My brew (unfortunately) was made using a kilo of ldme and it was not up to my usual standard. The best k and k brews (IMHO) seem to be made with a brew booster with 250g malt, 250 dried corn syrup, and 500g dextrose. A teabag of Goldings also makes a difference.

BB

 

[flattop]

+1 for yeast and stale kits.
My first Cerveza tastes home brewish (1k dex no ldme), although as it conditions in the bottle the taste is diminishing.
I brewed an ESB kit (more than twice the price) and it tastes great. (ESB use better yeast for a start).
I have tried a few different kits since and found the Cerveza was the worst for aftertaste.
Currently brewing the same Cerveza with a little LME (200gms) and with US-05 to see what difference it makes.
This is my last brew for the year.

Which brings me to the next point. I have about 2 litres of LME and 2 kilo's of LDME sitting in storage which i wont use now for at least a month.
If this contributes to the aftertaste what is the best storage method to save it?

 

[bigfridge]

I have spoken to a number of brewing scientists about this and the opinions came down into two main areas:

- Malt extract is not boiled, but reduced by low pressure evaporation. So all the things that are activated by temperature and boiled off in a normal boil are trapped in the extract.

- The presence of invertase. When you add Sucrose (ie plain white sugar) the yeast cell excretes invertase (an enzyme) to split the Sucrose into Glucose and Fructose, which can then be taken into the yeast cell for fermentation. The production and excretion of Invertase can lead to some tase effects.

These two flavour effects are not noticable in fresh extract, but when you get old extract or if it is oxidised or stored at higher temperatures they react to become 'that HB taste'.

HTH

Dave

 

[Adamt]

- Malt extract is not boiled, but reduced by low pressure evaporation. So all the things that are activated by temperature and boiled off in a normal boil are trapped in the extract.

The mash liquor is boiled as usual before evaporation...

 

[buttersd70]

- The presence of invertase. When you add Sucrose (ie plain white sugar) the yeast cell excretes invertase (an enzyme) to split the Sucrose into Glucose and Fructose, which can then be taken into the yeast cell for fermentation. The production and excretion of Invertase can lead to some tase effects.

This is a big thing for me....it's why I bang on so often about the evils of sugar. (or sugaz as some ex members used to say ). Some people are very sensetive to the flavours caused by invertase. Others, not so much.

 

[bigfridge]

The mash liquor is boiled as usual before evaporation...

True, but the damage is done. The compounds not removed by the lack of boil are involved with complex reactions that produce the HBT. Boiling later cannot undo these reactions.

Dave

 

[MHB]

Based on 10 years of running home brew shops, extensive study and lots of research (a lot of it leading to intense hangovers) I have reached the conclusion that :-

90% of the bad in any beer is down to crappy yeast management.

I will say that I am proud that in my shop last year the top 3 selling beer ingredients were Saf yeast as were 5 of the top 10 sellers.
US-05 being the biggest seller by units; you have to go down to number 7 to find a kit.

I really mean this if you want to make better beer get control of your yeast.

MHB

 

[flattop]

So what is the answer, i don't want to brew pig swill and i really don't have the time for AG.
I want a K&K that i can fiddle round the edges a bit (perhaps DME and dry hop) but basically output a quality brew at a reasonable price.
So far the only thing i have had close to this is ESB kits which are great but all the work is done already.

*edit, just read the last post.... I heard it's the yeast also which i why i am trying US-05.

 

[debineko]

Im very selective who I offer a home brew...

It can work the other way as well. Like my brother has always worked in hospitality and "knows" his wines/beers. But there's no way he's getting near my homebrew because I know it would kill all the fun for me. I enjoy brewing and enjoying drinking what I've brewed (and what others have brewed if they let me), knowing full well I'm not competing with the big boys. I don't need or want my beers to be given the evil eye, except by fellow homebrewers perhaps.

So if it doesn't taste homebrew-ish (in the negative sense of the word) to you, then go ahead and punch 'em in the guts. :angry:

 

[daemon]

Based on 10 years of running home brew shops, extensive study and lots of research (a lot of it leading to intense hangovers) I have reached the conclusion that :-

90% of the bad in any beer is down to crappy yeast management.

As a brewer with only 12 months of experience, I would have to agree. I did the basics, started with the standard Coopers kit and brewed the Lager with the kit yeast and kit sugar. Result was something like a beer but certainly nothing I really wanted to share or show off. After a bit of reading, I tried the Morgans Golden Pilsner kit but with Dextrose. Better, but still had that homebrew taste and still wasn't overly flavoursome.

Next (well, next drinkable!) was a Coopers Real Ale kit with BE2 (again, little bit more reading as to what should be in a beer) with some Cascade hops. Result was much better, one that I was willing to share with others! I still used the Coopers kit yeast but kept the temps down. It was better, but still had the standard Coopers yeast taste that took months to go away.

I then found the US-05 yeast, and all of the problems of funny tastes were solved! Even basic brews of the Coopers kit + BE2 + extra hops (pellets) combined with the US-05 yeast gave excellent results. Sure it doesn't produce award winning beers but they are very drinkable, reasonable flavour and a very clean taste. No "homebrew" taste!!

If there are new(ish) brewers reading this thread, here's what I recommend (in order of the improvement):

1. Use a better yeast, US-05 is great in many ales and even as a pseudo lager yeast. If you're worried about the extra cost, it works out to be less than 10c per stubbie extra! This will make the biggest difference to your brews. Temperature control is also important, for most ales 18 is ideal but under 22 will be fine.

2. Use something other than Sugar as the main fermentable in your brew. It can be as simple as using the Coopers Brew Enhancer 2, which is available at all the supermarkets. Ideally more malt will add more flavour and body, even 50/50 Malt/Dextrose makes a big improvement. Your LHBS shoud have this available.

3. Use some extra hops for flavour. It's cheaper (and better flavour) to buy the pellets. A popular choice is Cascade for ales and Saaz for Lagers. There's plenty of advice and suggestions in this forum! Unless you're creating an IPA, you don't need a huge amount (15g per brew makes a big difference) and you only add a little bit of additional time to the brewing process.

4. Once you've mastered the bits above, you can start to play around with steeping grains to add flavour, colour and body. Again it's not too difficult and the small amount of extra time taken makes a big difference. Even just adding some crystal malt will give you a "fresher" taste and better head retention in your beer. As little as 100g is needed for a standard brew, so it doesn't cost much extra.

This is just my opinion of course, there's thousands of posts here that you can read to get more info or multiple opinions. The beauty of homebrewing is the fact that there is so much choice!

 

[Bribie G]

Totally agree about the yeast comments. If brewing in warmer climes like QLD and only able to get into the 18 to 20 range using ice bottles etc, as well as US 05 another two brilliant yeasts for kit brews including Lagers are Nottingham and Safale S 04. I've used both and they will give quicker and cleaner results than the kit yeasts. They are available from sponsors at the top of the page as well as better LHBs.

Also if you get the hang of saving and reculturing yeast they work out fairly cheap. One packet can do up to six brews - far more if you are willing to take the risk of maybe getting a dud down the track, I usually factor in a cost of about 50 c per brew when using them.

 

[buttersd70]

daemon,
I agree with what you've said, and even agree with the order you've put them in...just have one thing to add. Once you've done 3, revisit 2. Once you get the hops in there, you can increase the malt even further.

 

[Fermented]

My first Cerveza tastes home brewish (1k dex no ldme), although as it conditions in the bottle the taste is diminishing.

I hate to even mention that I've made cerveza, but it's part of keeping the SWMBO happy. She's learning to enjoy Chimay, Trappiste, Austrian and German wheat beers, but it will take time.

The only easy solution to cerveza not tasting utterly horrid is time. If you do a simple brew (goo, liquid light malt extract, plus either dex or LDME) then it just has to wait about a month.

Same goes for quite a few recipes I've tried. Tastes rather nice out of the fermenter. A stubbie tester at one week of bottle fermentation tastes rather OK. Same test at two weeks is just not palatable. Test again at one month and you're starting to be in the zone.

Brew plenty, brew often, build your stocks and let them age. If your partner is giving you crap about how much you have aging, you can point out that a slab of Asahi Super Dry is $24.50 for a six pack and >$80 for a slab - that's ten bucks a litre retail (and yes, it's crap but it goes ok with sashimi/sushi/Jap-snack-food). If you have five 21 litre batches again you can point out that you have a grand's worth of beer in aging and it only cost you $150 (or whatever your brew costs are). You're saving money and you're a hero!

Oh, and +1 for S-04 and S-05/US-56. Quick, inexpensive and a step up from the kit yeasts. If you're game, try some Wyeast or White Labs. Costly if you're only doing a one off, but if you manage your yeast then you're in for a nice surprise.

Cheers - Fermented.

EDIT: Fixed typo.

 

[desmogod]

So what is the answer

My first brew was K&K with a teabag, and it turned out OK, drinkable but nothing special.
I have just cracked my first bottle from my second brew, a wheat beer, and it has turned out amazingly, you wouldn't know it was homebrew.
It's a can with some steeping grains, hops and WYeast 3068.
I have a fridge with a temp controller, which I think makes a huge difference to the finished product, and my friend is a very keen AG brewer, so getting all the info off him first helped.
I honestly think it is down to the yeast, fresh ingredients and temperature control.
I'll never go K&K again.