Switching Back To Batch Sparging

[Ross]

chiller has posted an article on the grain and grape site all about batch sparging.its what got me batch sparging in the first place.chiller has been a great help to me.its well worth a read.
he suggested a stir and 10 minute wait between runnings so im keen to give it some extra time to see how the efficiency goes.

cheers
big d

[post="89067"][/post]​

Big D,

Keen to here your results - I normally batch sparge after 10 mins, but have tried longer & shorter times - I do 6 or 7 batches a month & have had no difference in efficiency with prolonged rest whatsoever. Not denying some may have for whatever reason, maybe not stirring effectively comes to mind. But I can't see how that extra time is going to give you any substantial increase in effiency otherwise, but happy for some proof it does...

 

[Asher]

On the fly....

My efficiency is predictable. Who cares about percentages.... grain is cheap.
I fly sparge because I like my run-off to the boiler to be crystal clear. IMHO this does affect flavour, especially in the lighter lager styles. Cloudy run-off gives the beer a grainy taste...
I also have a pump so why not take full advantage of it...With a simple float switch my sparge has become set and forget.
- no stirring
- no manual recirculating to set the grain bed a second time
- no waiting round for 10 minutes to get those extra few points efficiency

end of the day though - Brewing good beer is just about being repeatable

All good

Asher for now

 

[Ross]

On the fly....

My efficiency is predictable. Who cares about percentages.... grain is cheap.
I fly sparge because I like my run-off to the boiler to be crystal clear. IMHO this does affect flavour, especially in the lighter lager styles. Cloudy run-off gives the beer a grainy taste...
I also have a pump so why not take full advantage of it...With a simple float switch my sparge has become set and forget.
- no stirring
- no manual recirculating to set the grain bed a second time
- no waiting round for 10 minutes to get those extra few points efficiency

end of the day though - Brewing good beer is just about being repeatable

All good

Asher for now

[post="89105"][/post]​

Asher,

Batch sparginging gives just as crystal clear runoff as fly sparging...
Batch sparging is also supposed to give you a better beer, as there is no leaching of tannins by the sparge water - I'm not sure how detectable this is, but likewise possibly a bigger problem with lighter lager styles...
The float switch is a great idea for those that wish to fly sparge.

Each to their own ...

 

[Gough]

end of the day though - Brewing good beer is just about being repeatable

All good

Asher for now

[post="89105"][/post]​

You hit the nail on the head Asher...

Shawn. (The 'live and let live' batch sparger )

 

[Darren]

Big D,

Keen to here your results - I normally batch sparge after 10 mins, but have tried longer & shorter times - I do 6 or 7 batches a month & have had no difference in efficiency with prolonged rest whatsoever. Not denying some may have for whatever reason, maybe not stirring effectively comes to mind. But I can't see how that extra time is going to give you any substantial increase in effiency otherwise, but happy for some proof it does...

[post="89088"][/post]​

Ross, You probably think I am a big stirrer ,
Don't get me wrong I am not one to try for the highest efficiency. In actual fact I could be the laziest mash brewer here (kids, wife, work).
I just recently noticed if I stir and recirculate between batch sparges I get an increased efficiency of at least 10 points. I suspect it is due to disruption of any channeling of sparge water. The grains are redistributed and the water again mixes with the grain allowing extraction of extra sugar from previously "hidden" non-sparged grains.
BTW, Before you completely discredit my responses, I have made more than 150 all-grain beers. Most of them 65 litres + :beer:

cheers
Darren

 

[vlbaby]

Asher,

Batch sparginging gives just as crystal clear runoff as fly sparging...
Batch sparging is also supposed to give you a better beer, as there is no leaching of tannins by the sparge water - I'm not sure how detectable this is, but likewise possibly a bigger problem with lighter lager styles...
The float switch is a great idea for those that wish to fly sparge.

Each to their own ...

[post="89108"][/post]​

I agree with you ross, the runoff clarity i am getting is exactly the same as fly sparging. I will admit that since i am using a herms system, recirculating the wort following each batch is much easier because of the pump . I add the top up water to the mash, stir the mash, then I leave it to recirculate for maybe 5 minutes, by which time is it crystal clear again.

The other point of interest to me is that i noticed no efficiency increase by fly sparging. The thing that chews me a bit, is that the extraction efficiency could be be as good as you like if your willing to keep sparging more and more. That goes for both methods. The down side is that the more you sparge the grains, the more tannins etc your extracting. I'm happy to sit with a less reasonable efficiency, knowing that the wort only contains the best part of the grains.

As for consistancy, i dont think there is a problem here either. I know that the next time i do the same beer again, I add X amount of grain, with X amount of mash and sparge water. I personally cant see a reason why this process cannot be repeated day in day out.

just my reasoning anyhow.

cheers

vlbaby.

 

[Ross]

Big D,

Keen to here your results - I normally batch sparge after 10 mins, but have tried longer & shorter times - I do 6 or 7 batches a month & have had no difference in efficiency with prolonged rest whatsoever. Not denying some may have for whatever reason, maybe not stirring effectively comes to mind. But I can't see how that extra time is going to give you any substantial increase in effiency otherwise, but happy for some proof it does...

[post="89088"][/post]​

Ross, You probably think I am a big stirrer ,
Don't get me wrong I am not one to try for the highest efficiency. In actual fact I could be the laziest mash brewer here (kids, wife, work).
I just recently noticed if I stir and recirculate between batch sparges I get an increased efficiency of at least 10 points. I suspect it is due to disruption of any channeling of sparge water. The grains are redistributed and the water again mixes with the grain allowing extraction of extra sugar from previously "hidden" non-sparged grains.
BTW, Before you completely discredit my responses, I have made more than 150 all-grain beers. Most of them 65 litres + :beer:

cheers
Darren

[post="89114"][/post]​

Darren, I've never questioned your brewing prowess & I haven't set out to discredit your responses - But I'm equally entitled to give my findings & if these happen to contradict your findings, then we have a basis for discussion & possible mutual enlightenment .

I am surprised at your comments "I just recently noticed if I stir and recirculate between batch sparges I get an increased efficiency of at least 10 points." What you are doing here is just standard batch sparge proceedure, is it not? What were you doing before?

In batch sparging, chanelling does not effect your efficiency to any great extent, as the sugars have already been mixed into solution from the stir. The grains are really only acting as a filter, little else. On the rare occaision I get a stuck sparge, I simply make a small channel through the mash & let it drain - again, I get no fall off in efficiency...

Cheers Ross

 

[Darren]

Ross,
Usually fly sparging or batch sparge depending on time. Each batch sparge is usually ~ 5 mins apart (enough to recirc. and clear). Same efficiency both methods.
Last couple of brews I have batch sparged but because of other reasons left it to sit for about half an hour between sparges. Efficiency went through the roof. On one occasion the first runnings from the second sparge had a higher gravity than the first running from the first sparge (does that make sense) I am not going to do this everytime, it is just an observation.

 

[tangent]

i gotta admit,
you guys are answering some of my questions, and some I hadn't even thought of yet

 

[Ross]

The other point of interest to me is that i noticed no efficiency increase by fly sparging. The thing that chews me a bit, is that the extraction efficiency could be be as good as you like if your willing to keep sparging more and more. That goes for both methods. The down side is that the more you sparge the grains, the more tannins etc your extracting. I'm happy to sit with a less reasonable efficiency, knowing that the wort only contains the best part of the grains.

As for consistancy, i dont think there is a problem here either. I know that the next time i do the same beer again, I add X amount of grain, with X amount of mash and sparge water. I personally cant see a reason why this process cannot be repeated day in day out.

just my reasoning anyhow.

cheers

vlbaby.

[post="89117"][/post]​

Vlbaby,

Must admit, I haven't noticed any increase in efficiency in fly sparging either, but I put it down to maybe channeling in my fly sparge - One of the reasons I now only batch sparge. I've even tried batch sparging the 1st run off & then fly sparging the 2nd one - still no change in efficiency. But as stated by others, the only real things you want are consistant results & a method that works best in your setup...

Cheers Ross

 

[Ross]

Ross,
Usually fly sparging or batch sparge depending on time. Each batch sparge is usually ~ 5 mins apart (enough to recirc. and clear). Same efficiency both methods.
Last couple of brews I have batch sparged but because of other reasons left it to sit for about half an hour between sparges. Efficiency went through the roof. On one occasion the first runnings from the second sparge had a higher gravity than the first running from the first sparge (does that make sense) I am not going to do this everytime, it is just an observation.

[post="89123"][/post]​

No, that doesn't make sense at all :blink: - But I'm sure there's an explanation & if you find it, I'd be fascinated to hear it ...

cheers Ross...

 

[wee stu]

I've only ever batch sparged, and of course topics like this dont entice me to experiment with fly sparging
On average who has done both and can hint towards what the difference in effeciency is..? 5% - 10% - 15%...???
is fly sparaging or batch sparging better for any specific MLT design.?

I'm in the opposite boat, only ever '*******' fly sparged. I don't bother with this balancing flows stuff but just top the tun up and run off slow and top it up a couple of times along the way. My system seems to average 80 - 85%, is it due to my sparging, who knows?

Have had a go at batch sparging after an all day mash, worked fine enough, I just don't enjoy having to recirc after each top up. (I know its only once more than usual but hey ...)

As long as the end product is good I say sparge how you please

[post="89083"][/post]​

I fly sparge.

1) my original system came with a sparge arm, and I am resistant to change.

2) I am a lazy brewer who wants to reduce the number of steps and processes involved. I sparge once, and can generally get the flow in and out more or less equalised.

3) Batch sparging adds a lot more labour to the process.

4) I am not time challenged. I may be lazy, but if I have set aside time to brew I expect it to take a while.

5) Refer to 1 :super:

edit corrected evidence being numerically challenged

 

[Darren]

Ross,
Usually fly sparging or batch sparge depending on time. Each batch sparge is usually ~ 5 mins apart (enough to recirc. and clear). Same efficiency both methods.
Last couple of brews I have batch sparged but because of other reasons left it to sit for about half an hour between sparges. Efficiency went through the roof. On one occasion the first runnings from the second sparge had a higher gravity than the first running from the first sparge (does that make sense) I am not going to do this everytime, it is just an observation.

[post="89123"][/post]​

No, that doesn't make sense at all :blink: - But I'm sure there's an explanation & if you find it, I'd be fascinated to hear it ...

cheers Ross...

[post="89130"][/post]​

As much sugar (and more) was available to be extracted from the grain! Hot sparge water, good stir, wait.

 

[vlbaby]

ross,
do you stir the mash after adding the sparge water? what is your routine, curious to compare.

cheers

vl

 

[Joel]

I've just been thinking of going to the fly sparge method, or rather a cross between the ******* fly sparge technique and proper fly sparging , for pretty much the same reasons that wee stu gave. Except I don't have a sparge arm.

 

[JasonY]

Except I don't have a sparge arm.

Neither do I Just an ice-cream container with holes in it to stop the grain bed getting hammered. Sparge are would be nice but I am lazy like stu so I can't be assed making one.

 

[Ross]

ross,
do you stir the mash after adding the sparge water? what is your routine, curious to compare.

cheers

vl

[post="89138"][/post]​

I add enough water to get 2 equal run offs...

EG:
If I need boil volume of 38L & used 6kg of grain. I prepare 44L of water. I mash with 15L of water (2.5L/kg). For first run off, I add 10L of water, give a good stir, let stand for 10 mins, recirculate till clear & then run all off into kettle (19L). I then add the remaining 19L, give a good stir again, stand for 10 mins, recirculate till clear & then run this remaining 19L into the kettle.
This is standard batch sparge technique in the articles I've read - would be interested if anyone does different... P.S. I get consistant 75% for an average brew (SG 5%). Slightly lower on a high grain bill & slightly more on a small grain bill.

 

[vlbaby]

I fly sparge.

1) my original system came with a sparge arm, and I am resistant to change.

2) I am a lazy brewer who wants to reduce the number of steps and processes involved. I sparge once, and can generally get the flow in and out more or less equalised.

3) Batch sparging adds a lot more labour to the process.

4) I am not time challenged. I may be lazy, but if I have set aside time to brew I expect it to take a while.

5) Refer to 1 :super:

edit corrected evidence being numerically challenged

[post="89132"][/post]​

It seems really strange, but except point 1 and maybe 3, those are the exact reasons i have switched back to batch sparging.

Part of the pain of batch sparging, i must admit, was recirculating the runnings.

Before I had the herms setup, i used to collect a litre of wort, gentle pour it back onto the mash, then do it again and again and again until i was sick of it. but with the herms i can simply add another ten litres of hot liquor, stir a few times, then switch on the pump for a few minutes. when this is done i switch the ball valves so that the pump redirects to the kettle instead of the mash. Its really not a PITA like it used to be.

vl

 

[Darren]

ross,


This is standard batch sparge technique in the articles I've read - would be interested if anyone does different... P.S. I get consistant 75% for an average brew (SG 5%). Slightly lower on a high grain bill & slightly more on a small grain bill.

[post="89148"][/post]​

Ross,
This could be the difference. I definately use a deeper grain bed, 45 litres of water and about 15 kg of grain.
cheers
Darren

 

[chiller]

A commercial brewery uses mostly a fly sparge system and many home brewers have miniturised this method for their system. Batch sparging,in the homebrew sense is a modification of the English method of mash,drain, wash out the grain. Sometimes this was two seperate beers.

I just looked at a standard recipe based on my batch sparge of 78% and my fly sparge of 90% and there is a difference of 500 gms of grain on a 24 litre brew into the fermenter.

Is this important as a homebrewer -- not in the least it is about 12% of the grain bill. Is it important to a commercial brewer -- you bet.

Does it make a difference in the taste of the beer -- yes it probably does but in all the beers [all grain] i have judge I could not stake my life on saying to you that beer A is batch sparged or beer B is fly sparged. And that is blind tasting.

Batch sparging can have definate advantages on a brew day. Time is one of them as the batch sparge is over before it starts. It requires little or no "special" gear and the type of manifold used will be far less important than that required for Fly sparging.

To do a fly sparge correctly the runoff must be slow - very slow - painfully slow.

The water does not really nead to be balanced in its flow in and out.

My method is very simple.

At the end of the mash "genly" stire the mash and let it sit for about five minutes to let the grain bed settle -- recirculate the wort for about 5 litres and it will now be quite clear. Slow the rate of flow from the mush tun hose to a very slow trickle and place that in the boiler, now run your sparge water and fill the mash tun [you must have calculated the entire brewday water and only that needed to give you your boil volume is added to the tun] Don't over sparge. CALCULATE!!

In my tun a 38litre rubbermaid or my direct heated 50 litre mash tun I can get all the spage water in. Use one of the whirly aingrms to give gentle water or a piece of ALuminium foil with holes in it to stop the water cause channels in the grain bed. I run the entire amount in at one time and don't attempt to balance the flow at all.

The out flow is painfully slow though. You could change the oil in your car and mow the neighbours lawns at the pace it runs out. IT MUST BE S L O W!!

1 - 2 HOURS IS NOT TOO SLOW.

Over a 12 month season of brewing you may need 10 - 20 kilos more grain by batch sparging but the time saving if you do both methods correctly is all in favour of the Batch sparge.

The same results brew to brew are far more important than how many percentage points you can get.

Steve