Style Of The Week 11/10/06 - Saison

[troopa]

Bored last weekend so i did a double batch up

10.1kg
75% BB PALE
20% WHEAT
5% Munich 1
and just for the sake of it 100g of malandolin

100g EKG at 60
about 30g saaz at 15 what ever was left in the fridge...
about 25IBU i think

Split the batch and went one Belgian Saison and one 3056 Bavarian wheat.. i know the wheat is too light on for the style but meh its tasting bloody nice in the fermenter

The Saison is amazing with the clove hit to the nose ... real xmas winner i recon and one ill do again real soon

Tom

 

[kabooby]

Bored last weekend so i did a double batch up

10.1kg
75% BB PALE
20% WHEAT
5% Munich 1
and just for the sake of it 100g of malandolin

100g EKG at 60
about 30g saaz at 15 what ever was left in the fridge...
about 25IBU i think

Split the batch and went one Belgian Saison and one 3056 Bavarian wheat.. i know the wheat is too light on for the style but meh its tasting bloody nice in the fermenter

The Saison is amazing with the clove hit to the nose ... real xmas winner i recon and one ill do again real soon

Tom

Nice one Troopa, looks like a big Saison

Kabooby

 

[jbirbeck]

I've got a Saison planned:

74% Pils (Ithink I measured the grain a while ago it may be JW Ale)
17% Munich
9% Wheat
Pac Gem to 23 IBU 60 mins
Hallertau 0.5g/l at 15 mins
Styrian 0.2g/l at 15mins
Saphir 0.5g/l at 0 mins
Styrian 0.2g/l at 0mins

Wyeast 3724

But given the ideal brewing weather in Adelaide at the moment for everything else, I am considering putting this one off to a time when the temp is running a bit higher. I started a tester bacth a few weeks ago with the heat but infection set in after som delays in pitching the yeast <_<

How important to the flavour and finishing off for 3724 is the higher temp?

 

[kabooby]

How important to the flavour and finishing off for 3724 is the higher temp?

I would say very important. This is the dupont strain and they normally finish it off at 30C. This yeast has a tendancy to stall so the increased temp really helps it get racing and finish out.

Kabooby

 

[Hutch]

I would say very important. This is the dupont strain and they normally finish it off at 30C. This yeast has a tendancy to stall so the increased temp really helps it get racing and finish out.

Kabooby

Dupont supposedly carry out a vigorous primary between 30-35deg C, to get most fermentation done quickly. I've read that this is purely for functional reasons, to free up precious primary fermentation space for the next batch. They also transfer to secondary after 5 days to avoid autolysis issues due to such prolonged high temps. I also beleive that they then insist on 6 month conditioning before it is released. Whether this is necessary to clean up after such high ferm temps, I don't know.

I have one going ATM (WY3724) at 27 deg, and it has only shifted 20-odd points in just under a week. Talk about sluggish. I have to say though that it hasn't affected the fermentation profile in the slightest - loads of spicy phenolics going on. I can't stop drinking gravity samples. Not sure if there'll be much left to keg by the time it finishes

 

[A3k]

Hi guys,
i've just made a saison with the French Saison 3711. I'm loving it at the moment and want to make another soon with some changes made.

Has anyone used raw wheat in one of these? If so, does it suit the style? I'm thinking about adding some to my next Saison.
I'm also considering adding some orange, but unsure on that at this stage.

 

[jbirbeck]

Dupont supposedly carry out a vigorous primary between 30-35deg C, to get most fermentation done quickly. I've read that this is purely for functional reasons, to free up precious primary fermentation space for the next batch. They also transfer to secondary after 5 days to avoid autolysis issues due to such prolonged high temps. I also beleive that they then insist on 6 month conditioning before it is released. Whether this is necessary to clean up after such high ferm temps, I don't know.

I have one going ATM (WY3724) at 27 deg, and it has only shifted 20-odd points in just under a week. Talk about sluggish. I have to say though that it hasn't affected the fermentation profile in the slightest - loads of spicy phenolics going on. I can't stop drinking gravity samples. Not sure if there'll be much left to keg by the time it finishes

I may let the chiller chill down to about 30-35ish then pitch a big starter and let it run like the wind. The yeast activity should keep the temp up even if the weather won't. I've waited too long to get one of these down...

 

[Hutch]

I may let the chiller chill down to about 30-35ish then pitch a big starter and let it run like the wind. The yeast activity should keep the temp up even if the weather won't. I've waited too long to get one of these down...

Sound like the right thing to do - pitching in the mid 30's, though I'm not sure if the yeast is vigorous enough to sustain this temp, unless you tuck it in to bed with a hot water bottle, and a few blankets :lol:
What a lazy yeast!

 

[A3k]

Hi RK,
I've got some Gen0 French Saison 3711 if you want some. That fermented out in about a week, starting at 20C finishing at 24C. OG:1062 FG:1002 (doesn't seem like 1002).
Seems like a less hassle yeast.
Never tried 3724, so can't compare flavours at all.

Anyway, let me know if you want some. Probably too far to drive for you though as i live just south of the City.

Cheers,
Al

 

[kabooby]

Unmalted wheat would be fine

Kabooby

 

[Pumpy]

I uderstood Saison Dupont after the primary fermentationeven if it has not fully attenuated ,they just bottle it in the champers bottles and allow six weeks for it to finish off in the bottle that way its nice and fizzy am I right or wrong ?

Pumpy :unsure:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Damn damn damn - this'll teach me to read more than one thing before I go interfering with perfectly good fermentations.


I accidentally made a saison - it was originally supposed to be a Coopers Sparkling clone(ish) and was the BIAB beer we brewed at G&G on the 14th. I took the cube home to ferment and the next day lobbed in my carefully cultured up coopers yeast starter... and then about an hour later noticed that my 3724 starter seemed to be in the wrong place....

I cursed for a while and then thought... hang on.. this might be OK. Coopers is a simple grain bill, the beer was brewed to be very dry.. and on looking at the recipe I used... its not far off what I would have come up with for a saison anyway

85% JW pale ale
7% JW wheat
6% cane sugar
2% special B

It was originally a 1.047 wort with an intended 2% cane sugar... but to convert it to the saison I pushed up to 1.051 by adding a litre of sugar syrup boiled with spices after the ferment had been going for a few days. Sugars totaled out to 6% with a little corriander, cardamon, black pepper, an anise star and some orange zest. only about 11-12g of spice altogether. Didn't wat to go over the top.

But it did what everyone has said in this thread... went super slow. After 11days it was only down to 1.019 and that was with most of it at 26-27C - and it failed to budge even a titch when I pushed up the temp and swirled etc etc. Now after reading this I guess I was being way way too hasty.. but I pitched it an active starter of Nottingham to get it to move along.

Now 5 days later its up to 29C, down to 1.008, just starting to clear up to a lovely orange colour and the samples are tasting pretty damn good. So its no disaster.. but I wish I had read this thread a week or two ago. Hell I was thinking about tossing some drying enzymes into it!! I guess it'll drop another point or so and that'll be it, especially when its got a couple of % of a crystal malt in there.

Coopers Sparkling Saison ... I reckon its gonna be a good one.

TB

 

[beers]

Now after reading this I guess I was being way way too hasty.. but I pitched it an active starter of Nottingham to get it to move along.

On the Jamil Saison podcast Chris White OK'ed adding a second yeast to help the Saison yeast finish out.

 

[Hutch]

I gave a sample of half-fermented 3724 Saison to a few fellow beer-snobs, and the general concencus was that I could easily carb it and drink it now, in spite of the gravity sitting somewhere in the mid 1.020's. The residual sweetness seemed well balanced by the spicy aromatics.

Incidentally, my recipe was:

80% W. Pils
13% W. Munich 1
5% W. Wheat
2% W. Caramunich
Bittered to 28 IBUs with NZ Styrian Goldings (FWH), EKG and Czech Saaz.
CaSO4 to >50ppm Ca
OG 1.045

I was shooting for a low OG (at the very lower end for the style) to result in a quaffing beer, much as Saison was brewed back in ye olden days. This was a double batch, split between WY3724 (Belgian) and WY3711 (French). Will be good to compare, as both yeasts seem to get rave reviews in this thread. The 3711 didn't need much TLC, finishing around 1.002 in a week at 21-22 degrees. I have the 3724 at 27 deg, and it is moving along very slowly. Would possibly head the advice next time and crank it up to >30deg for at least a week.

Looking forward to a blind tasting/comparison early in the new year :icon_drool2:
Hutch.

 

[jayse]

I read through this thread a couple times now and thought I'd summarise the info I have gathered.

Firsty the extremely high attenuation for the style would seem not just to do with the yeast having high attenuation but mashing regimes are always done to insure maxium attenuation, even close to 100% has been quoted but 90-95 is common.
A simple lower temp mash, single infusion seems pretty common, what does farmhouse ales say about the mashing of saison?

Secondly it would seem even though these beers are finishing down around 1.002-1.008 there can still be a sense of sweetness left and it would seem the bitterness must be fairly high to get the right balance, dryness and finish.
40 ibu looks about right for the ussual gravities.

The malt looks to be pretty simple with pils malt mostly and most people using munich malt only using small amounts.
There are a lot in the thread with saisons made to around 1.040, didn't see to many reports in detail how they come up but would assume a bigger chunck of munich malt would work well in those perhaps, could be wrong and interested to hear thoughts on that.

Hops as said 40 IBU looks good for most, at the very least it needs to have more bitterness then you would expect a beer finishing that low would need, hop flavour is very important with stryian goldings, saaz and hallertau seeming to be the most widely used/liked.
Some indication that fruity new world hops would not work aswell as you may think in this beer, around .75g/L at 20-15mins and same again at flame out or even dry hop, I presume this beer would work well enough without flameout additions but needs the 20min one.

From my gatherings it looks like the no additional spices is the way to go.
This seasonal strains sound great with the quicker turn around and get some great wraps, but 3724 is the most common but can take quite a long while to reach the end even at high temps.

Anyway with all of that I best go make one, I am gathering ale malt should work well in this lower gravity interpretation many people are making here.
I might make one of each with BB galaxy for the big one.
I was wanting to use a new zealand hallertau whole flowers but it seems these may take over the fruity characters you want from the yeast.
I will see what hops I end up with at the brewshop, lucky dip maybe :unsure:

 

[warrenlw63]

what does farmhouse ales say about the mashing of saison?

Jayse from reading Farmhouse Ales most of the relevant brewers seem to go for multi step mashes. That being said it seems to be the way for a lot of Belgian Brewers. I've done Saisons both ways and to be honest it will finish dry either way. Personally I think the yeast does the bulk of the work.

For me the nicest attempts have come from using just pilsner malt and a small percentage of wheat usually unmalted or some bourghul. Any Euro/British hops combos work well.

Warren -

 

[beers]

Hi guys,
i've just made a saison with the French Saison 3711. I'm loving it at the moment and want to make another soon with some changes made.

I started a Saison with this yeast last night (OG 1052, 30IBU, 80% Pils, 10% Munich, 10% Wheat, no spices). If the smell from the yeast packet is anything to go by it should be a cracker.. To me it seemed to smell less spicy & less phenolic than Dupont, with a sherbety lemony tinge to it, sort of reminded me of the smell of a Lambic.

 

[A3k]

I started a Saison with this yeast last night (OG 1052, 30IBU, 80% Pils, 10% Munich, 10% Wheat, no spices). If the smell from the yeast packet is anything to go by it should be a cracker.. To me it seemed to smell less spicy & less phenolic than Dupont, with a sherbety lemony tinge to it, sort of reminded me of the smell of a Lambic.

Hi Beers,
What's your hopping schedule going to be?

 

[beers]

Hi Beers,
What's your hopping schedule going to be?

It's already done

I went for something a little left of centre & bittered with Nelson Sauvin, & finished it with 10g of both Saaz D & Nelson Sauvin at 0 mins (actually steeped in the fermentor before emptying the cube in)

 

[Stuster]

That yeast does have a really strong lemony smell to it, beers.

Interested to see how it works with those hops. :unsure: