Style Of The Week 11/10/06 - Saison

[luckyeatwell]

Thought I might contribute my findings from using WY-3711.

I started with a 1037 OG wort consisting of:

50% Pils Malt
25% JW Pale Malt
10% JW Wheat Malt
10% Simpsons Naked Oats
5% Simpsons Areomatic Malt
XXg Amarillo @ 60Minutes
XXg Cz Saaz @ 14 Minutes

Mashed with a double infusion, 50 Deg.C then 65 Deg.C.

Can't quite remember my hopping schedule but the plan was for 30 IBU.

Pitched the yeast straight from the pack without a starter.

It finished in under a week, with a temp profile of starting @ 18-20 and stepping up after a day to 23, 25 the next day and probably got to 28 by the end of the ferment.

At bottling it smelt strongly of bubble-gum, phenolic sort of sweetness and tasted pretty much the same with a FG of 1003. Should be close to 4.5% after priming in the bottle to 3 volumes.

It had been in the bottle for all of 3 days when I opened one to try. There seemed to be quite a bit of yeast sediment so I assumed it may have carbed as quick as it feremented in primary - It was carbed a bit (perfect carb for an ordinary bitter).

Taste out of the bottle half-carbed was actually very nice. quite fruty with maybe a bit of clove, but also a bit tart and it is difficult to determine where the tartness starts before the bitterness picks up at the end. By no means is it too bitter.

The alcohol & phenolics were not hot or harsh for the given feremet temp (as I've had occur with my first attempt at a belgian dubbel) and cold from the fridge these phenolic fruity flavours are quite tame.

I'm not sure the specialty grains from Simpsons are worth their use in this beer, their complexity seems lost amongst the yeast derived flavours - though time in the bottle may help to make them more apparent. Base malts alone would likely make a very nice beer.

Cheers,

Lucky.

 

[kabooby]

I uderstood Saison Dupont after the primary fermentationeven if it has not fully attenuated ,they just bottle it in the champers bottles and allow six weeks for it to finish off in the bottle that way its nice and fizzy am I right or wrong ?

Pumpy :unsure:

Hey mate, Dupont ferment really warm around 30C. And the beer will go close to full attenuation. They talk about transfering to secondary to prevent autolisys at high temps but by the time they bottle I rekon it would be done. There is talk that the dupont strain is actually a blend of several yeast strains, one of which may even be a type of brett. The strain we get from Wyeast and whitelabs is the dominant strain from the dupont yeast. I guess it would be to hard to maintain the correct balance of the strains. The bottles are stored on thier side for about 6 weeks to condition before leaving the brewery. This will keep the cork wet and also add a slight cork flavour to the beer.

You could try bottling early, imo you would want to be pretty sure what your fg is going to be other wise you will have bottle bombs. Safer to let it finish and bottle with some sugar.

Kabooby

 

[Thirsty Boy]

sounds like a saison with 3724 might be a good contender for doing a forced fermentation test at the start.

make an extra 500ml starter and pitch (the yeast only) that into a few hundred ml of your wort.. keep it really warm till it stops. Heaps of yeast and hot temps should get it completely done well before the main fermentation.. then you know the "worst case scenario" for your FG

 

[mikem108]

re: Wyeast 3711
I've made my latest brew with this yeast also and was going to , according to my plan, add some dextrose at right about today in the fermentation process, but this was to add some dryness when assuming use of some of the more cantankerous Saison yeasts, however the 3711 is fermenting like a demon and may finish off plenty dry anyway. My question is do I add the 300gms of dextrose as planned?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

re: Wyeast 3711
I've made my latest brew with this yeast also and was going to , according to my plan, add some dextrose at right about today in the fermentation process, but this was to add some dryness when assuming use of some of the more cantankerous Saison yeasts, however the 3711 is fermenting like a demon and may finish off plenty dry anyway. My question is do I add the 300gms of dextrose as planned?

dextrose doesn't add dryness - it adds gravity without adding unfermentables. So adding your dextrose will make your beer stronger, but will not change the "dryness" in any way shape or form.

If its going to be strong enough for you without the dextrose.. leave it out. If you want the alcohol, put it in. Thats the only difference it will make really.

 

[A3k]

dextrose doesn't add dryness - it adds gravity without adding unfermentables. So adding your dextrose will make your beer stronger, but will not change the "dryness" in any way shape or form.

If its going to be strong enough for you without the dextrose.. leave it out. If you want the alcohol, put it in. Thats the only difference it will make really.

I agree with Thirsty Boy. Was just about to reply with the same thing.

Edit: Can I take some credit for the response?

 

[A3k]

i decided on making a 4.5 - 5% Saison, as i'm loving my 7.5% one on tap too much and needed one i can smash a bit more sensibly.
I'm using 3711 which dropped to 1002, which means bugger all grains required to make a double batch.

Possibly over complicated, but oh well. Ended up with a pretty cool colour.

Estimated Original Gravity: 1.038 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.002 SG
Estimated Color: 5.0 SRM
Bitterness: 25.9 IBU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 4.71 %

2.50 kg Pale Malt, Galaxy 38.46 %
2.50 kg Pilsner (Weyermann) 38.46 %
0.60 kg Wheat, Flaked 9.23 %
0.50 kg Munich II (Weyermann) 7.69 %
0.40 kg Caraamber (Weyermann) 6.15 %

30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) 11.8 IBU
10.00 gm Simcoe [12.20 %] (60 min) 9.1 IBU
30.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (20 min) 3.6 IBU
20.00 gm Tettnang [4.50 %] (10 min) 1.3 IBU
16.00 gm Goldings, East Kent (Cube Hopped) [4.80 %]

1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 10.0 min)Misc
2.00 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 min)Misc
4.00 gm Calcium Chloride (Mash 60.0 min)Misc
8.00 gm Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) (Mash 60.0 min)Misc

1 Pkgs French Saison (Wyeast #3711)Yeast-Ale

Cheers,
Al

 

[dr K]

that is amazing..nearly 95% attenutaion, even with a highly attenuative strain like 3711 you are looking 77-83% tops.
well done.

K

 

[A3k]

that is amazing..nearly 95% attenutaion, even with a highly attenuative strain like 3711 you are looking 77-83% tops.
well done.

K

Hi Dr K,
I haven't fermented this one yet, just mashed it. But the last one i did on this yeast went from about 1060 (or 1065) to 1002. i was shocked.
I'm pretty sure other people are getting the similar results with this yeast.
Cheers
Al

 

[Tony]

I agree with making a nice lite 4% saison. Something quenching.

here is what i have planned.

Saison lite

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 28.00 Wort Size (L): 28.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.50
Anticipated OG: 1.040 Plato: 10.07
Anticipated EBC: 5.6
Anticipated IBU: 23.2
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential EBC
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
77.8 3.50 kg. Weyermann Premium Pilsner Germany 1.038 3
11.1 0.50 kg. Weyermann Pale Wheat Germany 1.038 4
6.7 0.30 kg. TF Flaked Barley UK 1.034 0
4.4 0.20 kg. Weyermann Carahell Germany 1.035 26

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
50.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 21.2 40 min.
20.00 g. Czech Saaz Pellet 4.50 1.9 5 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3724 Belgian Saison

 

[Tony]

Well folks.... i have to report on my Saison stout.

It has been kegged for a couple weeks now and im working hard not to drink it all at once.

Its smooth and easy to drink... even for a 7% beer.

It has developed a destict aroma. the yeast and smooth roast malt has combined to give the aroma of brown sugar and sherry, smoke and chocolate. Taste is similar. Its dry but creamy smooth. The alcahol and yeast adds a slight acidity that ballances the malt well. No real hops there..... if they are there well blended with the mass of complex aromas and flavours.

Im very VERY proud of this beer!

cheers

 

[kabooby]

Tony that looks fantastic and the description makes me want one now. Hang on, it's only 7:20

Kabooby

 

[Pumpy]

Hey mate, Dupont ferment really warm around 30C. And the beer will go close to full attenuation. They talk about transfering to secondary to prevent autolisys at high temps but by the time they bottle I rekon it would be done. There is talk that the dupont strain is actually a blend of several yeast strains, one of which may even be a type of brett. The strain we get from Wyeast and whitelabs is the dominant strain from the dupont yeast. I guess it would be to hard to maintain the correct balance of the strains. The bottles are stored on thier side for about 6 weeks to condition before leaving the brewery. This will keep the cork wet and also add a slight cork flavour to the beer.

You could try bottling early, imo you would want to be pretty sure what your fg is going to be other wise you will have bottle bombs. Safer to let it finish and bottle with some sugar.

Kabooby

Hey Kabooby now I am going to use that French strain should attenuate Ok
I may not bottle now if it will attenuate well

What temp do you mash at ?
How long will it take to finish
How long do you store before drinking?
do you use a pressure gaugue on your keg if storing for a few months or is there no need with the French strain ?

 

[Stuster]

that is amazing..nearly 95% attenutaion, even with a highly attenuative strain like 3711 you are looking 77-83% tops.
well done.

K

Dr, I got over 90% attenuation on the batches I used this yeast with. Several other people have commented that it seems to like finishing at 1002. It's a really attenuative yeast.

 

[kabooby]

Hey Kabooby now I am going to use that French strain should attenuate Ok
I may not bottle now if it will attenuate well

What temp do you mash at ?
How long will it take to finish
How long do you store before drinking?
do you use a pressure gaugue on your keg if storing for a few months or is there no need with the French strain ?

- 67C
- I normally start around 20C and let it get up to about 24C. A 1045 beer was down to 1003 in 5 days
- I normally try it after a week and its good. I think it gets better after about 6 weeks but is still good earlier.
- No need to with the french strain.


I also think this would be a great style for some oak

Kabooby

 

[A3k]

Hey fellas,
my Saison (post 187) has been fermenting for 5 days. It's now down to 1002 as predicted. I'm assuming it's finished as the last few days it hasn't done much and there's no krausen, but i'll leave it until the weekend anyway.

it tastes great out of the sample, and with christmas coming up, i don't think this will get 6weeks to age.

I wonder if this kind of beer can be marketed towards low carb drinkers... I doubt they'd appreciate it though.

Cheers,
Al

 

[Hutch]

Hey fellas,
my Saison (post 187) has been fermenting for 5 days. It's now down to 1002 as predicted. I'm assuming it's finished as the last few days it hasn't done much and there's no krausen, but i'll leave it until the weekend anyway.

it tastes great out of the sample, and with christmas coming up, i don't think this will get 6weeks to age.

I wonder if this kind of beer can be marketed towards low carb drinkers... I doubt they'd appreciate it though.

Cheers,
Al

Hey A3k,
I'm absolutely loving my French batch at the moment (about 4 weeks in the keg), although it's certainly not going to appeal to many mainstream/low-carb drinkers. Most of my fam have tried it, and think it's "interesting", but generally switch back to the house ale/lager pretty quickly.

For mine, it's a sensational yeast, and definitely one I'll brew with again. Slightly peppery, tart and dry, though with some good residual cara/Munich malt sweetness, and some nice spicy phenolics not too OTT. Surprisingly, the hops don't take a back seat either - the Goldings/Saaz combo seems to work well.

As for the Dupont batch, well I'm still waiting for it to finish off (3 weeks in), and I'm growing impatient. I think I'll keg it, let it carb naturally at room temp, and come back to it in the new year. I love the esters, but it's not exactly fast grain to brain.
Hutch.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

My "rushed" batch with the dupont yeast has been cc for a week or so now and its tasting mighty fine - I will be filtering and kegging it probably tomorrow.

Finishing it off with Nottingham seemed to do the trick - down to 1.008-1.007 and I don't think it will get any better than that due to the small amount of crystal malt in the recipe.

So - If you make an Australian Pale ale but change your mind, it turns into a really quite tasty Saison with just the pitch of a poorly labeled starter and a bit of extra simple sugar.

TB

 

[jlm]

Hey fellas,
my Saison (post 187) has been fermenting for 5 days. It's now down to 1002 as predicted. I'm assuming it's finished as the last few days it hasn't done much and there's no krausen, but i'll leave it until the weekend anyway.

it tastes great out of the sample, and with christmas coming up, i don't think this will get 6weeks to age.

I wonder if this kind of beer can be marketed towards low carb drinkers... I doubt they'd appreciate it though.

Cheers,
Al

Mine got down to 1002 as well. I left it in 2ndry at about 25 for 2 weeks out of laziness more than anything. Tasting pretty good out of the keg straight away, just needs a tad more carb to make it a bit more prickly on the tounge. As said above, lemony, peppery. I even get a little pilsner malt flavour, almost a little sweetness which is amazing for a beer that finished so low.
Interested in fermentation regimes people have used for this yeast. I pitched at about 20, fermented at 21 for 2 days then bought up to 25, mostly because of the beer that was fermenting next to it. I think it could use a bit more phenolic flavour, but certainly have no problems with it atm. I guess when the only experience I've had with this style are Dupont and Beechworths effort, sets the bar a bit high to start with.

 

[Tony]

Im really really impressed with my stout with the 3724. Its really turned into someting special!

I think good things come to those who wait

Im intersted in the french strain though....... i want to make a pale Saison and get it really REALLY dry.

Im making something to BJCP guidelines while i have a few days off between xmas and new year and going to let it rip at summer temps in the garage with the 3724 belgian strain. I cant beliece how clean theu come out for a 30 deg ferment. Its cleaner than my first kit brew at 24 deg that tasted like fruit punch.

cheers