Stepping up to all grain

[kaiserben]

Hi everyone,

I'm Ben from Sydney.

I used to brew from extracts about a decade ago and have decided to get back into it - but go for all grain.

I'm going to start with some BIAB in my kitchen. In fact I tried to start last night, but the beer gods were against me; everything that could go wrong did. Perhaps someone out there can offer me some guidance/advice?

My recipe was for an American Pale Ale-

Batch size: 15L
Total grain: 3.1kg (2.9 America 2-row, 0.2 Crystal 60)
Total hops: 18g (8g Citra at 60 mins, 10g Citra at 20 mins)
Original Gravity: 1.044 (°P): 11
Final Gravity: 1.011 (°P): 2.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70%
Boil time: 60 mins
Single step infusion at 65 degrees for 60 mins.
Fermented at 18 degrees with Safale US-05.

So my mash tun was going to be a 12L jug cooler, http://www.raysoutdoors.com.au/online-store/products/Frostbite-Medium-Jug-12L.aspx?pid=293806#Cross

I'd heated up plenty of water (in my 19L Big W pot) to well over mash in temperature, to about 80 degrees and then took it off the heat to get it back down to near mash temp.

I quickly put the bag in the tun and poured the now cooling water into the tun without re-measuring the temperature or measuring what volume of water was going in. I'd added a fair bit of grain before realising I should have checked the temperature. So I checked it at this point and it was 70 degrees, which I thought was in the ballpark of being okay.

I added the rest of my grain and then some cold water and got the temperature down to 65.5 degrees, and the 12L tun as full as it could get, and put the lid on.

For reasons outside my control the mash remained in the tun for a bit over 100 minutes.

I poured the mash into my boil pot. Remembering afterwards that I should have made some measurements. So I measured the temp again and it was about 62 degrees and the gravity reading was 1.062. I assumed this was too high because of the extended mash time, so I added some tap water until the gravity reading was 1.046 (no idea of the correct temp at this stage as I kept starting the boil, then stopping because I as unsure of what the pre-boil gravity was supposed to be and kept changing my mind about what to d at that point).

Anyway, after half-starting the boil and stopping a few times, and taking a gravity reading of 1.046 (without a known temperature reading) I finally started the boil with approx. 11L.

The boil process was fine, with hop additions after the hot break the start and again at 20 mins.

After the boil I took a gravity reading fairly quickly (so temperature close to boiling) and got a 1.044.

I realised I didn't have a hose/tube/siphon to get the boiling wort into a chill cube, so tried a few things that didn't work and spilled a fair amount of wort in the process. Worst of all I'd decided to pour the wort back into the tun (which I quickly rinsed after ditching the grain/bag and then kinda half-sterilised). I was going to pour the wort through the mash tun's tap and into a chill cube. Unfortunately the hot wort destroyed the plastic tap on my mash tun and started spraying near-boiling wort through the button mechanism. There wasn't much I could do except let that spray into the chiller cube.

I lost a lot of wort in the process. Once again I forgot to measure how much. I squeezed as much air out of a 10L chill cube as I could and ended up with about an inch of air still in when I put the lid on.

So ... when it gets down to room temperature I'm going to put it in a 25L fermenter, pitch the yeast and hope for the best. I assume I'll need to take another hydrometer reading at this temperature? (particularly given poor practices used in previous readings).

And I'm assuming I'll just have to work with whatever I've got there, rather than adding anything (like extra water, or extra malt) to the wort as it goes in for fermenting?

And also, does anyone have any experience with the Frostbite Jug coolers from Ray's Outdoors? (I had tried to replace the tap before I started, but the standard taps seemed to be slightly too big for the hole). Can I salvage it for use as a mash tun considering the tap sprung a leak, but only due to coming into contact with boil temp liquor?

Apologies for the long first post. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[contrarian]

Sounds like a bit of a shocker mate! On the plus side, you've made beer and there's plenty of opportunities to improve your process!

One question, why don't you mash in the the pot with a bag or some Swiss voile? Takes the mash tun out of the process completely.

Also, what were you taking your gravity readings with! If it's a hydrometer then you need to make temperature adjustments to her an accurate reading.

Sounds like it might be worth sorting out a transfer method for next time. The simplest is probably a jiggle syphon and some silicone hose.

Once it has cooled down take a reading and have a taste. If it tastes fine then ferment it. There is also no issue adding water to the fermenter if the gravity is high.

Not sure if you used any program to estimate things but there's are few good programs around that will help predict your mash temp after adding grain etc.

Hope this helps, most o it sounds like simple problems that you'll figure out over the next few brews!

 

[Adr_0]

I had a 20-25L setup with a 20L Frostbite jug. I found it was actually really good, and perfectly fir the 9" false bottoms available. It held temp pretty well and drained well with a false bottom. I think you end up with about 1.2L of dead space.

The tap is also replaceable with a 1/2" threaded pipe (brass, or preferably SS), an SS nut or two (SS for the inside, brass for the outside is ok), 3/4" galv washer (for the outside, just for mechanical stiffness) and a silicone washer for the inside. Craftbrewer has all of this stuff, but I think some of the other site sponsors would too.

O-ring: http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4213
Lock nut: http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4211
Threaded pipe: http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=4210

I found that there wasn't a lot of room to play around inside once you have the false bottom and copper pipe from the top down to the dome of the false bottom down to the tap, but it works. The thread inside can only really be about 15-20mm from memory, so you can only fit half of the threads of a compression gland on. You might struggle to put another adapter for braid/silicone in (http://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=3431) as it would start to foul on the false bottom when you lift it out. You can always cut it down though.

 

[squirt in the turns]

Hello Ben from Sydney.

Wow, what a comedy of errors! But as contrarian says, at least you've made beer (well, wort at thus stage but with any luck it'll be beer soon). Aside from the brewday thrills and spills, the only points I'd be worried about are:

• Contamination from the plastic that melted (if it tastes OK it probably is, though)
• Hot-side-aeration from all the transferring and "spraying" of hot wort.

The jury's out on whether HSA is even a real thing and it's a debate not worth getting into at this stage, but for your own safety and sanity, sort out some means of transferring hot wort from the boil kettle to the cube. This can be as simple as contrarian's suggestion of a syphon, although my preference would be to put a ball valve and hose barb on the boil pot using a bit of threaded pipe, pretty much as Adr_0 suggests for your cooler. Stainless parts as per Adr_0's links are preferred but you could use brass and get everything you need in one trip to the big green shed. You might still need to go to a specialist like Craftbrewer for silicone hose, though. Vinyl or garden hose is a no-no. Get a cheap step bit from Bunnings or SCA to make the hole in the pot.

I also agree with contrarian's questioning of your choice to mash in the cooler. Keep it simple and do everything in the one pot. Wrap it in blankets during the mash to prevent too much heat loss.

You seem to be worrying about temperature and gravity at some strange times during the process. What you need to worry about is:

1. Strike water temperature - needs to be a little bit higher than your intended mash temperature as the grain will cool the water when you add it. Software like Brewmate can work this out for you.
2. Mash temperature - after mashing in, check that you're at the right temperature for your recipe. Check for hot and cold spots. Have cool and boiling water on hand to adjust if required. Insulate the pot and leave it alone for an hour.
3. Check the temperature at the end of the mash. If it's dropped more than a couple of degrees, you can adjust your process next time and either use better insulation, or put the pot on the stove halfway through to boost the temp a little (keep the bag off the bottom when doing this).
4. Lift the bag out and allow it to drain.
5. Take a gravity reading. If using a hydrometer, adjust for temperature (again, use software). This is your pre-boil gravity (unless you are going to sparge to make up more volume and increase your efficiency, but we'll leave that out for now). Your pre boil volume and gravity should match the recipe you're following. If they don't, adjust accordingly for next time (more/less grain, more/less water, again, software will help).
6. Boil. Not sure why you stopped and started the boil - just get it there and keep it there for 1 hour, adding hops as per your recipe. Temperature doesn't matter: boiling means ~100 degrees at sea level, less at higher altitudes; the difference is negligible for your purposes.
7. Whirlpool (optional) - helps to keep hot break and hop gunk out of the cube (by forming a cone of it in the middle of the boil pot).
8. Transfer hot wort to sanitised cube and seal.
9. Once cube is at desired fermentation temperature, aerate (splashing while transferring is sufficient) and take gravity reading. This should match the OG of the recipe. If not, you can adjust by adding malt extract or water (both first boiled and cooled, ideally).
10. Pitch yeast.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Stepping up or down AG recipies is all about ratio's. You can make it as big or small as you want.

 

[kaiserben]

I didn't mash in the pot only because I was worried about losing temperature too quickly. It sounds like I shouldn't worry too much - and that insulating the pot is fairly simple.
I was indeed using a hydrometer - only realising temperature affects the readings during/after the process (although the temperature adjustment table I found online didn't seem to go as high as I would've been measuring at near boiling).

The reason I was stop-starting the boil was only because I couldn't decide whether I needed to the gravity down to 1.044 before starting the boil, or not. I'd put most of the wort in the pot and on the hotplate while trying to drain more good stuff from the grain bag. At that stage I was ducking out of the kitchen and reading through forum posts to see what I should do (so I'd turned off the stove trying to decide if I was ready to continue).

If I'd had a fermenter ready to go (that's another story and part of why mashing went for so long), at the point that that tap started spraying I probably would've just chucked the wort in the fermenter with some ice and not worried about HSA.

I have BrewMate. I'm having a bit of trouble with it, in that certain fields wouldn't let me change the values to what I was experiencing in the kitchen. I figured out why that was for a few of them, but with others I just got stuck. I'm sure I'll work it out once I get the brewing process right.

Anyway - thanks for the tips. My mind is a bit more at ease. I'll be buying a few more bits and pieces. Will most likely install a tap and thermometer in the boil kettle to save some of the fiddling around - and will definitely be buying some silicon hose.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Stepping up or down AG recipies is all about ratio's. You can make it as big or small as you want.

Do'h.....misread tittle...

 

[kaiserben]

Well I promise I'm learning from my constant mistakes;

This arvo I poured the wort from my chill cube into a properly sanitised fermenter.

It was about 8L. I took a hydrometer reading (in a glass I'd sanitised because I decided, having lost so much wort already, and kinda living on the edge in terms of my chances of having infected beer, that I'd pour my test sample back into the fermenter. Was that incredibly stupid? Or just a bit risky? I also had a quick sip to see if it had already spoiled from previous bad practices. It tasted great, but I guess my mouth probably has loads of bacteria just waiting to spoil this batch of beer). The reading was 1.070, so I found a graph online that told me I could add 4L of water to bring it to 1.044.

Once adding that water I took another reading and got 1.060. So decided I'd now add about 2L at a time and test after each addition. Luckily, after adding only 2 more litres I realised that I hadn't stirred what was in the fermenter, so I gave it a shake/swirl, took a hydrometer reading of 1.040. Not the end of the world. I poured my sample wort back in the fermenter again. Sealed it up with cling wrap and an O-ring. Then realised I'd forgotten to pitch the yeast. So back off with the cling wrap, pitch yeast and seal up again.

I blame today's errors and risk-taking on a blinding hangover.

The upside is I've got 13L or so in the fermenter hopefully about to work it's magic. If it turns out infected I've at least learned a lot from the process and it's not like it cost a heap of money.

 

[luggy]

You didn't put the sample you drank out of back in did you

 

[RdeVjun]

You're well underway, invariably in this caper there's a few initial obstacles to overcome, this actually reminds me the old adage, every journey begins with a leaky tire and a broken fan belt.
It probably won't hurt to choose a particular method/ guide to follow, I'd recommend the MiniBIAB guide for Stovetop, particularly seeing as your mash tun tap is now jiggered.

Dilution to a specific Specific Gravity is pretty straightforward, it is linear and I use this (nb. SG units- use value '40' instead of '1.040'):
Diluted Volume = Actual SG / Target SG * Actual Volume

So for your batch: 70 / 44 * 8L = 12.7L, then 12.7L - 8L = 4.7L of water to add. That's not too bad considering that there was the odd issue! (However, bear in mind that MiniBIAB method above doesn't need dilution, if you choose to use it in future.)

By all means gather some data for the process, however I would suggest cooling hydrometer samples before measuring- usually you don't need the data right away for a decision. Adjusting hydrometer values measured at higher temperature is possible but IMO its not particularly reliable, whereas room temperature is best. Oh, and its probably sensible to discard the hydrometer samples, don't put them back in the fermenter, that's a recipe for infection.

Hope that helps! :beer:

 

[Adr_0]

You didn't put the sample you drank out of back in did you

Hmmm...

With dilution, yes you have to stir it well. You generally draw a sample from the bottom (more dense) and add to the top... So unless you sir you will continue to read the more dense wort. So trust the numbers and stir..

And don't put samples back in to the fermenter.

You want to not breathe in the wort, keep it covered when filling (even to the point of filling through the tap on the bottom with the lid closed) and your fermenter, o-ring, tap, airlock etc gave to be clean (unscented napisan or PBW) and sterilised. The senior type Airlocks are heaps easier to clean. Make sure the water in the airlock has Starsan in it.

Good luck...

 

[kaiserben]

Unfortunately yes, I did put the sample I drank back in. Even though I knew it was a no-no.

I think the main things I learned was that I need a better way of transferring wort from one vessel to another in a sanitary way (I'll be siphoning with a silicon hose from now on) and a sanitary way of getting just the right amount of sample wort that I will discard after testing.

This Sunday I'll be mashing up an all grain batch with a few mates (none have all grained before). So I've learned some valuable lessons ahead of this.

 

[Adr_0]

I will take a pic of my transfer setup. So far it has been very good, but I can't comment on oxidation as I haven't kept any around long enough. I have a hose going to a the bottom tap on the 'to' vessel and the 'from' vessel much higher. I have the lid of the 'to' vessel in firmly and an airlock in place. Hose has been starsanned and there is stillffoam in the'to' vvessel. I spray around the airlock in the 'from' vessel and sit a teaspoon on the grommet in place if the airlock (also Starsanned). Then let rip.

A 250mL spray bottle with a couple of drops of Syarsan is a very good investment. Spray up into the tap, then can you pour from the tap straight into the hydrometer tube (with the hydrometer in already)?

 

[kaiserben]

Yes, I've got the spray bottle and Starsan ready to use. I'll need to lift the fermenter off the floor and on to a bench when I'm ready to test again.

I'll probably test it after it's been in fermenter for 11 days and again at 13. And then bottle if no change between the 2 measurements.

 

[kaiserben]

Can anyone give me some outside the box ideas about how I might ferment at lager temperatures in a small apartment?

I'm pretty keen to make some schwarzbier/dark lager at some point, if possible.

 

[Adr_0]

One of the good/ttraditional lager yeasts won't really be an option, but I think the Wyeast California Common gives a lager profile at ewarmer temps.

Whitelabs have Cream Ale and San Francisco lager I think.

I think you will get some odd flavours if you try the 34/70 and S23 at ale temps. To be honest I've never used S23 so maybe it is ok.

You really still need to keep it fairly cool.

 

[Dan Pratt]

This Sunday I'll be mashing up an all grain batch with a few mates (none have all grained before). So I've learned some valuable lessons ahead of this.

Thats an intersting 1st AG brew day, we have all made mistakes and have learnt from those and truth is we are all still having minor c**kups that can be fixed on the run with experince, so a small piece of advice which is not sugar coated ...... Deffer this get together brew day with your mates till you have your skills improved :huh:

If your doing your second batch with mates there, your likely to be having a few beers and you will have more problems due to distractions and at this stage, problems you could do without ( evidence from OP ) Take the time to get your process/timing/equipment sorted while researching and learning from mistakes, then think about showing the boys what AG is all about.

Put it this way.......it would be like getting the boys over for a beer on the new timber deck that you have built onto the back of the house, but when they show up all you have is the holes dug for the piles/posts and they are far from impressed.

 

[contrarian]

Swiss lager yeast seems to do a decent job of lagers at ale temperatures and it is certainly what Bacchus brewery use in their lagers.

Don't worry about joy side aeration. There are many different perspectives on it but a professional brewer on the forum has said it is really only an issue for massive breweries moving large volumes of liquid at high speed.

Instead of tipping your wort for measuring back into the fermenter you should drink it! Getting to know how beer tastes throughout the process is one of the joys of all grain brewing.

 

[kaiserben]

I checked my fermenter yesterday evening (yeast pitched 24 hours earlier) and fermentation is well under way. So that's something positive.



On the topic of lager brewing: Apart from the lower fermenting temps, is lager brewing any more complicated than ale brewing?

In terms of keeping lager temps in my apartment cupboard, I was thinking of maybe trying a water/ice bath to sit the fermenter in. I'm assuming people have tried this, so would it work?

 

[kaiserben]

So I had my group brewing day today (ended up being 3 of us) and there were no major problems. We made only a few minor mistakes that didn't hamper the process too much.

Still a lot to learn obviously, and took way longer than it would for an experienced brewer, but overall very happy with the huge improvement in the brew day process.