Starting Wyeast

[Jovial_Monk]

Absolutely starter and yeast temps must be close

However, I would chill my lager wort to 20-23C, pitch my starter, then gradually cool the wort down to lager temps, 20C to 10C in 10-15 hours. The yeast is not fermenting at first and in any case will not produce any ale type esters in those first few hours. It will, however, adjust to your wort, multiply etc more quickly, thus rapidly lowering wort pH, using up all the oxygen aand beginning to chew on the wort sugars more rapidly than if pitched at 10C. This safeguards your wort from infection.

Jovial Monk

 

[Jazman]

Well when dave from wyeast visited he reconmend to pitch cooler then rise for your diactyl rest

 

[Darren]

Absolutely starter and yeast temps must be close

However, I would chill my lager wort to 20-23C, pitch my starter, then gradually cool the wort down to lager temps, 20C to 10C in 10-15 hours. The yeast is not fermenting at first and in any case will not produce any ale type esters in those first few hours. It will, however, adjust to your wort, multiply etc more quickly, thus rapidly lowering wort pH, using up all the oxygen aand beginning to chew on the wort sugars more rapidly than if pitched at 10C. This safeguards your wort from infection.

Jovial Monk

I would strongly advise against using this as a protocol for making lagers. Not sure where you obtained this info from from JM!
Pitch a lager at 20-23 C and it will be finished before the beer reaches 10 C. Especially if a big starter as been made. Esters will be a big component of a lager pitched at these temps.
Most fridges will take at least 15 hours to cool from 23 C to lager temps. The additional heat that is generated from the primary fermentation will also make it harder to get to lager temps.
If you are worried about the yeast adjusing to a given wort, simply feed the starter with a small amount of the wort for a few hours prior to pitching.
Sanitation is the best safeguard against infection of wort. Most organisms will grow quicker at higher temps (20 C) including spoilage organisms.
Darren

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Hi Darren

Sorry, I sorta disagree with you both

Start your lagers around the 16 - 17 mark and reduce over the next 12 hours max to lager temps. 23+ is very hard to reduce to 10 - 12 when the yeast really gets going.

In the 1st few hours the yeast is in lag mode getting used to the work, then it goes into logarithmic growth mode where heat is generated and ethanol production starts. The main growth phase is going to depend on how much yeast you pitch and how good the wort is for them.

I pitched a lager yeast at about 16C around 4 pm Saturday and by 10 am Sunday it was at high Krausen and down to 10 to 11C. If I tried to pull this down from 23C, I would have shocked the yeast.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Darren]

Hi Darren

Sorry, I sorta disagree with you both

Start your lagers around the 16 - 17 mark and reduce over the next 12 hours max to lager temps. 23+ is very hard to reduce to 10 - 12 when the yeast really gets going.

In the 1st few hours the yeast is in lag mode getting used to the work, then it goes into logarithmic growth mode where heat is generated and ethanol production starts. The main growth phase is going to depend on how much yeast you pitch and how good the wort is for them.

I pitched a lager yeast at about 16C around 4 pm Saturday and by 10 am Sunday it was at high Krausen and down to 10 to 11C. If I tried to pull this down from 23C, I would have shocked the yeast.

Cheers
Pedro

Pedro,
If I were doing 23 litre batches I would agree with you but as my batch size is 65 litres cooling to 8-10 C in twelve hours is not all that easy. Without periodically taking the fermenter out and swirling it, the centre of the wort would stay 16 for 20 or more hours. I try to move 65 litres as little as I have to.
Also, if you were to pitch 16 degree C wort directly onto a cake from a previous batch it would start and finish very quickly! Especially low gravity worts (1.044 and down)
I prefer to pitch a big active starter (or onto a yeast cake) at lager ferment temp (10-12 C) that has been fed with and airated in the wort it is about to be pitched into.
Really we don't disagree! Tom was suggesting to pitch at ale temps (23 C). Both you and I are saying to pitch at lager temps. After all 16 C is lager yeast temps albeit at the top of them

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Hey Darren

The batch I did on Saturday was 45 litres and it dropped OK. The garage temperature was 10 or 11 to start with which helped the fridge cope

Cheers
Pedro

 

[Darren]

Pedro,
How did you measure you wort temp?

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Darren

With one of my temperature sensors (0.5C accuracy). If I could get the right bit of stainless tubing, I would leave one in the wort all of the time

Pedro

 

[Gulf Brewery]

The Whitelabs site has some info on this as well. They say to pitch at 20C (68F) and then bring the termperature down when signs of fermentaton starts (CO2 evolution ).

http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast_instructions.html

This method is fine as long as you have glycol chillers like professional breweries do. Pitching at 16/17 is a good midpoint in that I can get a rapid growth of the yeast and I am still able to get the temperature down in a reasonable time.

Cheers
Pedro

 

[devilsaltarboy]

Although I have never done a lager yet I pitch my wheat yeast between 13-15C and I find the best way to get the starter acclimatised is the morning of your brew cool the starter itself from 24C to 13C or whatever temp on the day of your brew. It has always worked for me and since then I have had no problems with temperature shocking yeast. This requires a little practise to ensure both are similar temperature and are at right temperature.

 

[Darren]

Sounds good to me DAB.
Pedro,
As Jazman said, Dave Lodgson from white labs suggested to pitch lower and warm to lager temps.
Apparently, this is standard practice in German breweries
D

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Dave Lodgson from white labs suggested to pitch lower and warm to lager temps.

Hi Darren

Now you are really confusing things. I think Dave L is from Wyeast B)

Anyhow, I think that Wyeast and White Labs have differing opinions on the pitching temp for lagers. Like all things in brewing, it just depends.....

Pedro

 

[Darren]

Now you are really confusing things. I think Dave L is from Wyeast B)

Yep Pedro,
He is from wyeast. My silly!

 

[sosman]

Would someone clear this one up for me:

Why is cooling your starter from say 22 down to 14 any different from pitching at 22 and cooling primary down to 14 with respect to "yeast temperature shock"?

 

[Darren]

Would someone clear this one up for me:

Why is cooling your starter from say 22 down to 14 any different from pitching at 22 and cooling primary down to 14 with respect to "yeast temperature shock"?

Heya Sosman,
I will have a go.
If you could cool your primary from 22 to 14 within a couple of hours there would be no problem doing this with respect to "yeast temperature shock".
Yeast generally donot like large temperature fluctuations. I think that it is agreed that a sudden drop (or rise) of 10 C or more sends the yeast into shock. This can result in either a transient complete shut-down of the cellular machinery.
But, I think you are asking why is it ok to cool a starter but not a fermenter!
It is simply that it is possible to actually cool a 1 litre starter from 22 down to 14.
The problem arises when you pitch your lager yeast into 22 degree wort. Lager yeasts are "trained" to ferment slowly at around 8-12 degree C. If you pitch at 23 their metabolic activity rises enormously and the ferment and divide like mad. At this temp they also spit out numerous fermentation by-products that are undesirable in a lager.
Unless you have some way of cooling your wort quickly from 22-14 degree C alot of fermentation will have occured in a very short time. Your beer will be full of phenolics.
For example, if you were to pitch a large lager starter into 23 litres of 1,044 wort at 22 degree C that beer would be finished within 24 hrs instead of the 6-7 days it should take. It would take about 12 hours to cool 23 litres to lager temps in a fridge.
Lagers should be slow and cool from start to finish!

If you could cool your primary from 22 to 14 within a couple of hours there would be no problem doing this with respect to "yeast temperature shock".

Darren

 

[devilsaltarboy]

In the case of wheat beers the initial pitching temperature has a huge effect on the overall ester profile. My first wheat beer I pitched at 20C and cooled down to 15C quickly (6h). This was not enough to prevent the overwhelming banna esters. The temperature in the first six to twelve can influence the final flavour profile at least in wheat beers and Id be fairly confident in lagers as well. It would be worth someone doing an experiment on a split wort one pitched at 20C and cooled to 12C and the other pitched at 12C I would be confident there would be a substantial difference with the 12C brew being a lot cleaner. Correct me if Im off track here

 

[Jovial_Monk]

rule of 30

Sum of pitching and fermentation temperatures should equal 30
Pitch at 12C, ferment no warmer than 18C for nice subtle clove aroma

Jovial Monk

 

[Hoops]

I am in the process of starting my WLP940 Mexican Lager Yeast and was thinking of a different way of pitching the yeast.
I have just finished boiling my 1.5-2L of wort and have put it in the fridge to cool. I was planning to pitch the yeast tomorrow morning but rather than warming the yeast and starter to room temp, is there any disadvantage to adding the cold yeast to the cold starter then letting it warm to room temp. I can only see this as an advantage as there will be no thermal shock as the yeast and wort are at the exact same temp, and the starter will gradually warm to room temp preventing any shock.
Any ideas????

Hoops

 

[Gulf Brewery]

Hoops

No hassles at all doing this. As long as they are the same temperature, they are happy little vegemites (well, after they die they become vegemite).

Pedro

edit - some additional info
Still make sure that you have an active starter before you pitch it though

 

[jgriffin]

I'm about to get some WhiteLabs Cider yeast, and as i don't want Malt in my cider, i'm curios to hear thoughts on how to cultivate it.

I have a few cheapo kits that i was given, one though was to pitch it into the kit brew, and take the yeast off the trub, wash with sterilised water, and ditch the beer.

Thoughts?