Some Questions On Brewing Cider

[dingo34]

Honey will ferment out also, so I don't recommend using that.

You add the lactose at the beginning (try 40g in a 2L bottle of juice, or 50g in 2.4L bottle (minus the cup of juice you take out), in the next batch you can add/subtract to your taste. I bought homebrand 50/50 apple/pear juice - $3 for 3L and used equal amounts of it and apple juice in my 5L demijohn (from memory - I think that's what I did - made up to 25% anyway). So your best bet will be to keep an eye out for the apple and pear juice and make it up in that bottle. Easy, and should be about the right sweetness (mine was still a little dry).

EDIT: Yeah, that's pretty quick. They must have been warm. Got any sulphur flavours? Try the blackcurrent when it's done. It is like pear in that it will still taste a little sweet even when it's done. I can't remember which - either golden circle, or just juice, but one of the black current and apple juices is much higher than all the other ones. I recommend that. It makes a pinker, sweeter (not overly by any means) cider.

Not sure, what's a sulphur flavour, is that like the dreaded home brew taste that you never taste in commercial alcohol?

 

[KudaPucat]

Honey will ferment out also, so I don't recommend using that.

Depends how much you have...
I have a cyser that conked out at 1.005 at the moment.
But that did require a fair bit of honey.

I've heard of healthy ferments as quick as 24 hrs. It depends on how healthy and well fed the yeast was.
I suspected your inactive batches had fermented mostly before you even looked.
My first mead was like this. I repitched, added food did all sorts of things before measuring it and finding it was already done.

 

[Tanga]

Depends how much you have...
I have a cyser that conked out at 1.005 at the moment.
But that did require a fair bit of honey.

I've heard of healthy ferments as quick as 24 hrs. It depends on how healthy and well fed the yeast was.
I suspected your inactive batches had fermented mostly before you even looked.
My first mead was like this. I repitched, added food did all sorts of things before measuring it and finding it was already done.

Wow, nice. Quick mead. I'm jealous.

I figured enough honey to sweeten a cider, even with an ale yeast, would be a bit pricey at this stage. Plus 1118 has a bad rep. Though I have a recipe for a delish apple and blackcurrent cyser if anyone's interested.

 

[dingo34]

Depends how much you have...
I have a cyser that conked out at 1.005 at the moment.
But that did require a fair bit of honey.

I've heard of healthy ferments as quick as 24 hrs. It depends on how healthy and well fed the yeast was.
I suspected your inactive batches had fermented mostly before you even looked.
My first mead was like this. I repitched, added food did all sorts of things before measuring it and finding it was already done.

So, the thing for me now is to wait 3 days and if the level is the same (1006) then lid it and put in fridge...is this correct?
But if it has dropped more, to say 1002 or 1000, then leave for another 3 days and test again...I'm reading that this idea is for it to stay at the same level for 3 days..then it's ready for the lid and fridge

 

[Tanga]

If you want to fridge now you can. Especially if you're not adding sugar and priming.

 

[pk.sax]

hehe.. that cloudy takes its time sometimes.... too bad ur fridge is too cold, guess I just got lucky

I bottle my cloudy btw, and make it in a carboy for the slightly extended ferment it enjoys.... Still, those bottles are meant to keep the juice fresh for a while and are grade 2 plastic, same as fermenters so shouldn't be too bad. Most people don't even try the cloudy cuz it doesn't look like bottle shop cider - and more expensive, but it is worth it if u develop a taste for it, closest you get to pressing your own.

btw, I've done pear once it did retain some sweetness, I think it stopped at 1.004 for me when I did that one. Did it in a carboy since I had to mix juices up. I didn't find it worth the hassle to bottle though so I just started doing the ferment in bottle apple juice and refrigerate to retard again. The cleaning does drive you nuts with carboys, fermenters n all.

re - Sanitising, get starsan, its good. I stuffed around for a while but the ease of using starsan is just a winner. Alternatively, in a pinch, check out a decent pharmacy for hydrogen peroxide. You will have to ask them for it and it comes in pissy 50 ml bottles, but you dilute it, just like you dilute starsan and it is very effective, neutral and no-rinse. I'm sure if you ask someone will tell you the dilution, I don't have my bottle on me anymore. The pharmacy sells 3% H2O2 as far as I remember, not the most cost effective though but for those stuck out in the middle of nowhere and not ordering a bunch of stuff to make postal orders worth it.... brew shops also sometimes sell it as copper tun hydrogen peroxide etc.. A little cheaper in that packaging than the pharmacy. Great thing about H2O2 is that it will never ever contaminate your brew AND it kills yeast, incl wild yeast so its useful to keep as a secondary no-rinse sanitiser. If I am paranoid about cross introducing yeasts between brews I spray with the H2O2 rather than starsan, which I heard is even a nutrient for yeast.
The other sanitiser I like is just plain old sodium percarbonate, its cheap, its not no-rinse but it loosens mild stains due to being an oxidiser but doens't create detergent like foam like napisan does. I've also stuck a load of bottles into the dishwasher on its highest heat setting (85-90C) and used the bottles straight after with no issues, some people bake their bottles... wait.. I'm gettign wayyyy :icon_offtopic:

PS: I hope ur enjoying a few drinks from those bottles by now its bn long enough by my count. hehe.

:icon_offtopic: PPS: Kuda - I got kegs recently too, waiting on my gas bottles to turn up... then the next paycheck.. then a chest freezer/fridge or something.. then stuff, then time to actually brew again, haha.
I've got to take a pic of all the kegging gear I scored off a guy that quit brewing, 3 kegs, 1 normal 2 gauge regulator, 1 three gauge regulator (to dispense two kegs at a time), unused pluto gun, flexmaster line, beer tap to fix on fridge, steel drip tray to mount on fridge, some coopers buckets, fermenter, keg disconnects, line, hydro etc.. for 320 bucks. Even found some spare keg lid seals in the lot. Gumtree ftw

 

[dingo34]

hehe.. that cloudy takes its time sometimes.... too bad ur fridge is too cold, guess I just got lucky

Well, I have finally put two in the fridge.
I did the readings today again (since yesterday) because it looked like they had stopped bubbling, and the two that were at 1006 yesterday are now at 1000-1002, so I put on the lids and stuck em in the fridge...

so, what to expect now? If I have this right, the remaining sugar in the juice (if there is any), will be what carbonates it, but I am not to expect too much by way of carbonation, not that it worries me at all. If the bottle gets hard, to open the lid, maybe pour a drink, but the main thing is to let some gas out, yes?

The fact is, I can really drink it when I like now hey? Having tasted them at room temperature, I am looking forward to tasting them chilled.

I just want to thank everyone for their input. This idea has really grown on me and I'm looking forward to exploring the possibilities

Cheeeers

Don't forget that last step (the drinking). It's very important. =p

You bet

 

[Tanga]

Well, I have finally put two in the fridge.
I did the readings today again (since yesterday) because it looked like they had stopped bubbling, and the two that were at 1006 yesterday are now at 1000-1002, so I put on the lids and stuck em in the fridge...

so, what to expect now? If I have this right, the remaining sugar in the juice (if there is any), will be what carbonates it, but I am not to expect too much by way of carbonation, not that it worries me at all. If the bottle gets hard, to open the lid, maybe pour a drink, but the main thing is to let some gas out, yes?

The fact is, I can really drink it when I like now hey? Having tasted them at room temperature, I am looking forward to tasting them chilled.

I just want to thank everyone for their input. This idea has really grown on me and I'm looking forward to exploring the possibilities

Cheeeers



You bet

Yup, every thing you wrote there is correct. You've got the idea now =).

 

[dingo34]

hehe.. that cloudy takes its time sometimes.... too bad ur fridge is too cold, guess I just got lucky

I bottle my cloudy btw, and make it in a carboy for the slightly extended ferment it enjoys.... Still, those bottles are meant to keep the juice fresh for a while and are grade 2 plastic, same as fermenters so shouldn't be too bad. Most people don't even try the cloudy cuz it doesn't look like bottle shop cider - and more expensive, but it is worth it if u develop a taste for it, closest you get to pressing your own.

I have PET bottles, will they do the trick?

 

[pk.sax]

I have PET bottles, will they do the trick?

don't see why not.. keeping 3-4 months (my recommendation for cider), absolutely surely yes.

By the way, this brew in the bottle and cabonating in same bottle is just that, to get you past the basics of finding out what it tastes like at stages and how it ferments (fast/slow etc...). Just use your observations to tune it your way and now that you would know exactly what is lacking/good, you can ask more pointed meaningful questions on how to fix something if ur stuck.

Also, if you really fermented them out to 1000-1002, don't expect it to carbonate much by itself..... is why I said start refridgerating when it stops frothing/vigorously releasing bubbles. If you want that to fizz up, add a little sugar/fresh juice to the bottle. But, I'll be honest, my cider frm the bottle whose cap cracked (cheapo bottle, my mistake) tastes beautiful with low fizz, a bit chilled.

Cost SFA apart from juice and yeast to make it

I just had an idea, next time I'll start a ferment 4 days before I go camping and then stick the bottle in my car fridge for the trip. That fridge only brings stuff down 15C from ambient, so I can expect cider Gotta find a good strong bottle (and Cap) to do this in.

 

[Tanga]

Coke bottle is your best bet for that. Those things are made for high pressure. The Berri Apple and blackcurrant are ohmyfuckinggod brilliant like that. Plus the pink colour looks cool. Popular with the ladies, and while the blokes may pay you out they aren't slow to hold their glass out for a refill either.

 

[pk.sax]

Coke bottle is your best bet for that. Those things are made for high pressure. The Berri Apple and blackcurrant are ohmyfuckinggod brilliant like that. Plus the pink colour looks cool. Popular with the ladies, and while the blokes may pay you out they aren't slow to hold their glass out for a refill either.

hehe.. bn thinking that... might even help trap some yeast in the bottom... note - remember to buy coke (ew...) at the supermarket.

 

[MHB]

Have recently been reading up on Keeving, and found this website. The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal The downloadable "Science of Cidermaking" is about the best free reference I have ever seen. Have just ordered a couple of copies of the book (yes I like old fashioned books).

Well worth reading

MHB

 

[Greg.L]

Have recently been reading up on Keeving, and found this website. The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal The downloadable "Science of Cidermaking" is about the best free reference I have ever seen. Have just ordered a couple of copies of the book (yes I like old fashioned books).

Well worth reading

MHB

Ha! this is a funny thread to mention Andrew Lea and keeving! He advocates slow, cool ferments with fresh juice from bittersweet cider apples, and wild yeast. This thread is about quick ferments of supermarket juice in a coke bottle. The only thing in common is they're both apple juice.

Andrews site is very good, but a lot of it is for cool climates where apples are harvested very late.

 

[Tanga]

IPA (supermarket) have quite a few juice specials at the moment. $2.99 for 2.4L, so not the cheapest for specials, but not bad. My eye was drawn by the Cranberry and Apple. If the special's still on this weekend I know what my next experiment will be.=)

Not sure what other supermarkets are doing, but usually they compete, so keep your eyes open.

 

[KudaPucat]

Not sure, what's a sulphur flavour, is that like the dreaded home brew taste that you never taste in commercial alcohol?

It's like the nasty flavour you get from some natural springs. It smells of fire and brimstone. Or like rotten eggs in its gaseous form.
You'll know the smell. Some cars with a broken catalytic converter will belch this out too.

 

[pk.sax]

I'm yet to make a cider that hasn't thrown off sulphur smells. A minute in the glass and it dissipates. I'm never concerned because it tastes right and I haven't added anything but yeast to the juice, so it can't be some nasty synthetic chemical.
It also goes away with bottling and some ageing. If it was a lingering pungent smell I'd be concerned but a bit of natural sulphur odour goes away in the time taken to click my fingers.

 

[KudaPucat]

I'm yet to make a cider that hasn't thrown off sulphur smells. A minute in the glass and it dissipates. I'm never concerned because it tastes right and I haven't added anything but yeast to the juice, so it can't be some nasty synthetic chemical.
It also goes away with bottling and some ageing. If it was a lingering pungent smell I'd be concerned but a bit of natural sulphur odour goes away in the time taken to click my fingers.

Yep, that's right.
If you get a big sulphur smell though it pays to take note.
Also it shows that your yeast are stressed/hungry, so the addition of nutrients will assist in a better brew at this point.
Run a test some time, add 4-6 raisins per litre in one of your batches, and see if it's smelly at all... I find sulphur smells to be inconsistant, so have never run this kind of test, but if you ALWAYS get a sulphur smell, try it, and see if the smell goes away. That few raisins will not flavour the brew noticeably. I'd be interested to see how good they are as a nitrogen source.
Happy yeast make for a quicker ferment, and less fusels and 'hot' flavours.

 

[dingo34]

ok, taste tests and update so far.

The two apple juices (3 litre bottles) don't really have much flavour, they taste like a poorly made cordial.

The cloudy however, I quite like this one.

The apple and black current has yet to go in fridge, will do so when I can make room (that is polish off one of the others)...

I also noticed that both of the apple juices have not gone hard, or there seems to be no pressure building at all, where as the cloudy, that seemed to pressurize within a day or two

cheers

 

[pk.sax]

ok, taste tests and update so far.

The two apple juices (3 litre bottles) don't really have much flavour, they taste like a poorly made cordial.

The cloudy however, I quite like this one.

The apple and black current has yet to go in fridge, will do so when I can make room (that is polish off one of the others)...

I also noticed that both of the apple juices have not gone hard, or there seems to be no pressure building at all, where as the cloudy, that seemed to pressurize within a day or two

cheers

Mate, I'm guessing that cloudy is in the fridge and still going hard... yep, that always has leftover sugars to ferment slowly unless you leave it alone for a month or so, its actually the only supermarket juice cider I find worth bottling. Kinda self regulated. Glad you like it
With the other ones, you get what you make. Fermented to almost dry that juice was not going to retain a lot of flavour. Its why I let it be a sweet cider by chilling it before it finishes. My suggestion, mix with some fresh apple juice in the glass to drink, it would be cider (alcohol) + fresh juice flavour.

PS: I forgot to mention before, even though the temp in the fridge door might be 3C, the yeast will push it up a little, that wine yeast is really tough, it ferments at even really low temp, slower but does keep doing it.

PPS: Mark, thats an awesome read. Not sure I'll ever be arsed to work that hard for cider but gonna pick something easy up to better mine